Cecily-Halfrek is one of the great unanswereds. Halfrek apparently recognized Spike at Buffy's birthday party, but I don't believe anything was ever followed up. I don't remember what the official statement is on the connection, if any.

I don't remember what the official statement is on the connection, if any.

Somewhere, I read that the official statement was they were the same person. I thought everyone else knew, so I was making the standard Ben-is-Glory joke.

I wanted them to be the same character. I even committed a short fanfic about it before Hell's Belles.

I think Cordelia/Angel could have worked had Greenwalt been gone.

I'm skeptical. I will admit that it seemed to briefly be workable when directly in Joss' hands, with both characters being annoyed and snarky and themselves within the context of acting out emotions imposed from without. But I don't think it would have been sustainable for a season or more, particularly in the hands of the lesser writers most of the time. I suspect that "Waiting in the Wings" was actually an outpouring of Joss' talent on a par with OMWF, only with most of the effort involved being invisibly spent pulling the episode out of the event horizon of Angel/Cordelia anti-chemistry, so that we got something that was merely good rather than the best Angel episode ever.

I do think that the primary culprit was ironically Greenwalt's affection for Cordelia, as she was systematically stripped of all the faults and tactlessness and affectionate but biting put-downs of her friends that made her such a wonderful character, in favor of out-of-character saintly benevolence and Buffy Suedom. But apparently there was a huge blind spot going on across the board, as Joss clearly greenlighted the changes and was taken aback at fan reaction, and Tim was right there running the show day-to-day.

And when did magic become something you could do just by waving your hand? This shit started in "Smashed," but now Willow can give English commands to cars and make them work? Why did they throw away five solid years of magic continuity?

Actually, this started back in Season 5 with the struggle against Glory, as Willow became so powerful that she could enforce her will on reality directly without all the ceremonies and talismans she used to need. It read as an organic progression to me. Magic--->controlled substance did not.

I have this theory, and I may be off-base here, but that people who have been or have people very close to them who have been clinically depressed tend to like S6 better than those of us who haven't been through that sort of thing.

This isn't universal though. I really liked Season 6 (though I agree that it wasn't as enjoyable as previous seasons due to the darker themes), and at that time had no first or secondhand experience with depression, though I think I subsequently went through a mild bout of the self-esteem eating monster last year.

As for Charmed, I watched it myself until it was bereft of both Shannon Doherty and Julian McMahon. I regard it as a guilty pleasure with a fair amount of good mixed in with the bad.

But I don't think it would have been sustainable for a season or more, particularly in the hands of the lesser writers most of the time.

Well yes, I agree with this, too. Also, when I think of a pair "working" in ME's hands, I think of more time spent hurt and apart, than together and schmoopy.

I suspect that "Waiting in the Wings" was actually an outpouring of Joss' talent on a par with OMWF, only with most of the effort involved being invisibly spent pulling the episode out of the event horizon of Angel/Cordelia anti-chemistry, so that we got something that was merely good rather than the best Angel episode ever.

*choke* It's funnier, 'cause it's true.

I do think that the primary culprit was ironically Greenwalt's affection for Cordelia, as she was systematically stripped of all the faults and tactlessness and affectionate but biting put-downs of her friends that made her such a wonderful character, in favor of out-of-character saintly benevolence and Buffy Suedom. But apparently there was a huge blind spot going on across the board, as Joss clearly greenlighted the changes and was taken aback at fan reaction, and Tim was right there running the show day-to-day.

Yes. Yes. Yes, Matt. And with whatever issues there were with the talent too, it never stood any sort of practical chance. I understand the need to downplay her snark to some extent, because she was now the female lead. But they didn't downplay it, they erased it, such that she ended up being random-pretty-female-character.

For me, the biggest issue was Buffy. When they started writing signs of interest between Cordelia and Angel, I expected the Buffy issues to bubble up (probably be a huge sticking point) and be addressed, and they never were. But Cordelia—who used to not be able to stop herself from speaking the truth—knew or could easily figure out why Angel left Sunnydale, and knew the truth—the realities of Buffy and Angel's "romance" when they were together, post-Angelus.

With any other love interest, I could have bought that Angel wasn't going to get his complete moment of happiness. I could still buy that Angel wouldn't be completely happy with Cordelia, but I couldn't buy that Cordelia would stand for that.

I've been buying the DVDs this year and watching 2 or 3 eps a night. And now I'm up to Doomed

But anyway, my take on the seasons is that there's a kind of inverse proportion between "quality" - acting, design, expensiveness - and the charm and writing.

Season 1. They're all too old, most of them can't act, the sets look like they're falling apart, the fights are laughable. But it's got all the charm in the world. It's a silly, trashy show done with so much heart and soul that, despite yourself, you choke up.

Season 2. A bit more grown-up, a bit more coherent. Boreanez is the only one left who can't act, and even he does a good enough Christian Slater impression to carry the second half of the show. And the writing has really hit stride, they've got the confidence to handle big arcs, they can sustain the metaphor perfectly. And they have Spike & Dru.

Season 3. The absolute pinnacle of the show. The casting,writing, direction - even the fight choreography was inspired. Plus it's the season that really exploited the central (for me) idea of the show( The Breakfast Club meets I was a Teenage Werewolf) to the fullest, culminating in The Prom , which was the grand finale of the best John Hughes movie ever. Much as I love what came after, it should have ended here.

Season 4. How do you follow that? This is, for me, the beginning of the slide in quality. They don't really hold a theme through the season - is it about College, about how friendships fall apart?. The first season to be salvaged by great episodes - Wild at Heart, Hush, Restless, This Year's Girl/Who Are You - rather than being a whole better than the sum of its episodes. The charitable explanation is that they'd had the courage to (literally) dynamite the entire premise of the show in Graduation Day, and were wrestling with where to go next. The slightly less charitable explanation is that Joss's focus was elsewhere with the creation. The really uncharitable explanation is that they knew they'd finished the story, but in the course of S3 it had become such a cash/kudos cow they couldn't bear to let it go. This is where the trend towards pandering to fandom begins (Spike is popular! Let's have more Spike!)

Season 5. They've found a new mission, kind of - it's Singles meets X-Files . Again, a season you remember because of the great episodes (The Body. The Gift). But the structural weaknesses were getting worse and worse, and the pacing was awful - they brought in Glory too soon. It's the equivalent of Alien3 - if they'd focussed on the drama and not felt the need to keep amping up the monsters, it would have been better. And we're really pandering to the fans now, with the Spike/Buffy storyline, the overblown fanfic that was Fool For Love. However, the Gift utterly redeeemed the season. Again, surely, this was the perfect time to end the show?

Season 6. But no, they dragged the poor old thing out of heaven, and for what? Yeah, at points it's a brilliant view of depression. Yeah, the despairing crescendo that followed Tara's death was brilliant. And yes, of course, OMWF is unmatched. But I just plain can't remember huge chunks of the season. The Trio were lame as fuck. And they bottled out of the best idea - making Buffy function in the real world of work, bringing it back to reality. The defining moment of the series was the end of Normal Again, which for me was the writers thinking "ah, hell, the fantasy, no matter how dark, is more comforting"

Season 7. It's unrecognisable, really. There are some fine, fine moments - Selfless is the best episode since S3 - but it's just a fucking mess. I love the idea of going back to school, the FE should have been the best Bad ever (and should have been the Hellmouth personified, but that's another story). Again, the last few episodes - once Caleb arrives - are great, and Chosen is a wonderfully fitting finale, but looking back to S3 you realise just how far the show had fallen.

But it was never ordinary.

Angel, FWIW, I never cared a damn about. If I had to choose I'd go S2 (Darla!), S3 (Wesley!), S1(Mean Streets!) and I'd forget S4 ever happened.

But the Jim Order of Buffy Seasons is:

3

2

1

5

4 6=7

Season 2. A bit more grown-up, a bit more coherent. Boreanez is the only one left who can't act, and even he does a good enough Christian Slater impression to carry the second half of the show.

I love our (the whole of us) different perceptions. I agree with a good deal of your points, Jim, but to me, BtVS season 2 is the season that showed me Boreanaz has a talent for acting; of course, I'd never thought of his turn as Angelus as a Slater impersonation. I will have to look for that in subsequent viewings (and a bit of me is worried that I will probably shake my fist at you from afar—for the rest of my life—if your comparison rings true and therefore ruins him for me ;-P ).

BtVS S2 taught me that DB was able to turn on a dime. Everything Angel-y changed, when Angel lost his soul and we were left with Angelus: facial expressions; voice, the cadence of his words; his physicality. When I start thinking DB can't act, I have to remember that season of Buffy, and wonder how much writing and direction deserve credit and blame (versus talent, training, and the right co-stars), when he doesn't quite pull off a particular line, scene or episode.

(Erm...not to say I haven't seen growth re DB, since S2. I have. But for me, that's the season in which his talents were best used.)

Season 6. But no, they dragged the poor old thing out of heaven, and for what?

I had a lot of those moments, but for me, they were mostly influenced by fandom. Once I removed myself from the conversations that were making me feel that way (either: Spike needs to die NOW, or Spike needs to be canonized NOW so we can call him the saint he clearly is despite that Bitch Buffy types of conversations) I was much better, and enjoyed the season much more. I think the Buffistas gave me back season 6.

and I'd forget S4 ever happened.

I am curious as to why? Is it the Cordelia/Connor thing? I know that was just too wrong for enough people who formerly loved the series. I thought A:ts S4 was stellar overall, but with low points that were probably lower than any other season's low points (save Pylea, which just rotted, imo).

Cindy, you are no longer me. Pylea was a big hoot!

And thinking about it, they should've kidnapped Cordy after Birthday and replaced her with Jaye. Yuhuh.

Cindy, you are no longer me. Pylea was a big hoot!

It was a hoot (and there were hooters, too), but it was a letdown, coming right after the wonderful slow burn that was Angel's beige. I understand there were casting issues (with JL or JB) that fed into this, but for me, it was too anti-climactic, too soon. Groo can't act his way out of a paper bag. There was, however, Numfar. I will laugh about Numfar for 'til the end of my days. It just wasn't worth it to me, overall.

It proved that AA could look good even in a sack, and that CC could look good even in a gold bikini. Which, granted, they didn't need to go to Pylea to prove.

Also, "Handsome man saved me from the monsters" ... everyone's favourite line.