Back a ways, somebody said that the Big Evil of the attempted rape had to be balanced. For some of us, a re-souling does just that, because there can not be any real redemption unless the perpetrator can really understand, and repent of, the transgression, and a soul would be a specific requirement for that. A re-souling is indeed a very big deal....)

(Sorry, I have to go and do some rush work now -- will return later to the discussion, which will probably have moved on!)

I guess what I mean is that Spike was never Angelus, and several chipped years really took an edge off. So I don't see that there need be that big a distinction personality-wise. I think the difference is more evident in the motivations and actions, as opposed to the surface personality.

Although souled Spike is far more tranquil than unsouled ever was.

However he IS different--for me he's lost his edge of danger that made him, well, sexy. Now I find myself looking at him and thinking "what a handsome man." Where I used to think "Gimme some of that."

Yep. When he started killing people this season? Yowza.

Excuse me, I think I need to see a therapist now.

Loved seeing Buffy and Angel. SMG and DB have such great chemistry. I think I'd be happy watching them read the Sunday paper for an hour. Giggled at Anya and Andrew having a wheelchair fight. Liked Dawnie showing some nads by tasering Xander and tearing ass back to Sunnydale.

Disappointed that BlackEyed!Caleb doesn't seem to be leading anywhere.

I am going to miss my show, damnit.

Wow, how did I miss this rolling over? It happened in a flash!

Grr!

Post eating monster.

Okay. Before running off for real this time:

For some of us, a re-souling does just that, because there can not be any real redemption unless the perpetrator can really understand, and repent of, the transgression, and a soul would be a specific requirement for that.

Having a soul in and of itself is not a sure fire state of grace and redemption. Warren, as pointed out, had a soul.

They gave me the viewer no reason to think that the soul made him somehow better, or redeemed, or on the path to it. They just talky meated after CWDP and NLM.

Huh -- I think that I agree with askye here -- the problem was how they treated Spike post Seeing Red.

I also think, though, that they expected us to take the soul/no-soul difference much the same way that Buffy did (i.e., that it makes all the difference).

It's a shame that the fear of people spoiling the final scene caused them to write and have Spike played like somebody out for revenge (or chip removal) rather than somebody looking to get his soul back. (At least, that's my understanding what happened.)

I also think, though, that they expected us to take the soul/no-soul difference much the same way that Buffy did (i.e., that it makes all the difference).

I'm so tempted to use the old assume platitude here. So tempted.

(Thunks head on keyboard)

SHOWING SHOWING SHOWING!!! IS THAT TOO MUCH TO ASK???

I think that the fact that Spike (supposedly) sought out a soul and changed prior to that event has a lot to do with why pre- and post-soul Spike aren't as different from each other as Angel and Angelus. Angelus had a soul inflicted upon him, and lost that soul later through a loophole in the curse. (Note that in this season of Angel, an elaborate deception was required to get him to lose his soul again).

Having a soul in and of itself is not a sure fire state of grace and redemption.

That's clearly true in the real world, but we've been told it is one for Angel thousands of times. (Yes, he's gone grey, but in general the soul/likes to help people unsouled/likes to kill people distinction is pretty firmly held to.) Why shouldn't souled/unsouled spike have the same distinction?

I think they want him to have it, but they're doing a rotten job writing it because they're in luv with BadBoy!Spike.