Huh -- I think that I agree with askye here -- the problem was how they treated Spike post Seeing Red.

I also think, though, that they expected us to take the soul/no-soul difference much the same way that Buffy did (i.e., that it makes all the difference).

It's a shame that the fear of people spoiling the final scene caused them to write and have Spike played like somebody out for revenge (or chip removal) rather than somebody looking to get his soul back. (At least, that's my understanding what happened.)

I also think, though, that they expected us to take the soul/no-soul difference much the same way that Buffy did (i.e., that it makes all the difference).

I'm so tempted to use the old assume platitude here. So tempted.

(Thunks head on keyboard)

SHOWING SHOWING SHOWING!!! IS THAT TOO MUCH TO ASK???

I think that the fact that Spike (supposedly) sought out a soul and changed prior to that event has a lot to do with why pre- and post-soul Spike aren't as different from each other as Angel and Angelus. Angelus had a soul inflicted upon him, and lost that soul later through a loophole in the curse. (Note that in this season of Angel, an elaborate deception was required to get him to lose his soul again).

Having a soul in and of itself is not a sure fire state of grace and redemption.

That's clearly true in the real world, but we've been told it is one for Angel thousands of times. (Yes, he's gone grey, but in general the soul/likes to help people unsouled/likes to kill people distinction is pretty firmly held to.) Why shouldn't souled/unsouled spike have the same distinction?

I think they want him to have it, but they're doing a rotten job writing it because they're in luv with BadBoy!Spike.

But last night, with Caleb near peak strength (after merging with FE), she was able to take his punches far better.

My take on this is that it's a mental preparedness thing. Slayers fighting better when they feel confident is canon. See Faith v. Kakistos, Buffy v. Bitch who broke umbrella from s4, and many many other battles. (axecalibur doesn't hurt, of course)

eta that not only is it canon, it's just fact. buffy needs a sports psychologist.

Your soul is returned to you.

Didn't say it was giving Spike what he wanted, asked for, or deserved. I still think what Spike wanted (to be a dechipped vampire, which would at least settle the man-or-monster question) and what he got were two different things.

The difference between Angelus and AR!Spike may be the history. The Scoobs knew Angel as Angel and gave him the benefit of the doubt. Much like one could (but not necessarily would) forgive the misdeeds of a friend who's messed up by, say, bad medication. Spike seems harder to put in that category. The Scoobs never saw William -- just Spike, the Big Bad wannabe. (And even near his moral peak late in S5, he still had the Buffybot programmed to moan, "You're the Big Bad!") There's no William they could point to as a possible norm.

That's clearly true in the real world, but we've been told it is one for Angel thousands of times. (Yes, he's gone grey, but in general the soul/likes to help people unsouled/likes to kill people distinction is pretty firmly held to.) Why shouldn't souled/unsouled spike have the same distinction?

But it's true in the Buffyverse as well that a soul doesn't always make you good or do good. We've seen it with countless people. And with Angel, it was fairly clear that he has had to make some conscious choices to do something with the soul other than drink, occasionally save puppies, and let a hotel full of people get fucked with by a paranoia demon.

I don't think that Spike shouldn't have had the redemption option, I just think that they've told rather than shown, based on an assumption that's sketchy to begin with, if that makes sense.

Wow. Step away, do a little work, and a whole new thread pops up!

Belated thanks to Dana and smonster for their help re: "Amends".

He's amused me occasionally, but the joke continues to grow thin.

Again, I find myself with Hayden. It’s a good place to be.

WRT Andrew, I would rather have seen Jonathan live. I have to admit I've enjoyed Andrew, but I resent him being as prominent when there's so little time left.

See, that’s my ish. He’s playing too prominent a role this season given that last season we were all, “who’s Andrew?”

If only they could have devoted as much screen time to Real! Giles.

As for White! Willow, I am so totally into it. Oh yeah.

I used to battle for the "but Spike has a soul now" team, but honestly, the soul was never an issue for him the way it was for Angel, and I therefore don't see the soul as having done much for him. I mean, the only time he was actually killing people in the past, what 3 seasons, is after he got the soul. Granted that wasn't technically his fault, but it just proved to me that soul does not = eternally good.

I mean, like Anya said, people kill each other, which is clearly insane, and hey, we are all supposed to be soul-having by nature. So the soul argument just doesn't do it for me anymore. The lines between soul = good no soul = bad have become very blurred, and that seems much more realistic to me.