Wow, how did I miss this rolling over? It happened in a flash!

Grr!

Post eating monster.

Okay. Before running off for real this time:

For some of us, a re-souling does just that, because there can not be any real redemption unless the perpetrator can really understand, and repent of, the transgression, and a soul would be a specific requirement for that.

Having a soul in and of itself is not a sure fire state of grace and redemption. Warren, as pointed out, had a soul.

They gave me the viewer no reason to think that the soul made him somehow better, or redeemed, or on the path to it. They just talky meated after CWDP and NLM.

Huh -- I think that I agree with askye here -- the problem was how they treated Spike post Seeing Red.

I also think, though, that they expected us to take the soul/no-soul difference much the same way that Buffy did (i.e., that it makes all the difference).

It's a shame that the fear of people spoiling the final scene caused them to write and have Spike played like somebody out for revenge (or chip removal) rather than somebody looking to get his soul back. (At least, that's my understanding what happened.)

I also think, though, that they expected us to take the soul/no-soul difference much the same way that Buffy did (i.e., that it makes all the difference).

I'm so tempted to use the old assume platitude here. So tempted.

(Thunks head on keyboard)

SHOWING SHOWING SHOWING!!! IS THAT TOO MUCH TO ASK???

I think that the fact that Spike (supposedly) sought out a soul and changed prior to that event has a lot to do with why pre- and post-soul Spike aren't as different from each other as Angel and Angelus. Angelus had a soul inflicted upon him, and lost that soul later through a loophole in the curse. (Note that in this season of Angel, an elaborate deception was required to get him to lose his soul again).

Having a soul in and of itself is not a sure fire state of grace and redemption.

That's clearly true in the real world, but we've been told it is one for Angel thousands of times. (Yes, he's gone grey, but in general the soul/likes to help people unsouled/likes to kill people distinction is pretty firmly held to.) Why shouldn't souled/unsouled spike have the same distinction?

I think they want him to have it, but they're doing a rotten job writing it because they're in luv with BadBoy!Spike.

But last night, with Caleb near peak strength (after merging with FE), she was able to take his punches far better.

My take on this is that it's a mental preparedness thing. Slayers fighting better when they feel confident is canon. See Faith v. Kakistos, Buffy v. Bitch who broke umbrella from s4, and many many other battles. (axecalibur doesn't hurt, of course)

eta that not only is it canon, it's just fact. buffy needs a sports psychologist.

Your soul is returned to you.

Didn't say it was giving Spike what he wanted, asked for, or deserved. I still think what Spike wanted (to be a dechipped vampire, which would at least settle the man-or-monster question) and what he got were two different things.

The difference between Angelus and AR!Spike may be the history. The Scoobs knew Angel as Angel and gave him the benefit of the doubt. Much like one could (but not necessarily would) forgive the misdeeds of a friend who's messed up by, say, bad medication. Spike seems harder to put in that category. The Scoobs never saw William -- just Spike, the Big Bad wannabe. (And even near his moral peak late in S5, he still had the Buffybot programmed to moan, "You're the Big Bad!") There's no William they could point to as a possible norm.

That's clearly true in the real world, but we've been told it is one for Angel thousands of times. (Yes, he's gone grey, but in general the soul/likes to help people unsouled/likes to kill people distinction is pretty firmly held to.) Why shouldn't souled/unsouled spike have the same distinction?

But it's true in the Buffyverse as well that a soul doesn't always make you good or do good. We've seen it with countless people. And with Angel, it was fairly clear that he has had to make some conscious choices to do something with the soul other than drink, occasionally save puppies, and let a hotel full of people get fucked with by a paranoia demon.

I don't think that Spike shouldn't have had the redemption option, I just think that they've told rather than shown, based on an assumption that's sketchy to begin with, if that makes sense.

Wow. Step away, do a little work, and a whole new thread pops up!

Belated thanks to Dana and smonster for their help re: "Amends".