River: 1001. 1002. Simon: River... River: Shh. I'm counting between the lightning and the thunder to see if the storm is coming or going. .1005

'The Message'


Buffy 4: Grr. Arrgh.  

This is where we talk about Buffy the Vampire Slayer! No spoilers though?if you post one by accident, an admin will delete it. This thread is NO LONGER NAFDA. Please don't discuss current Angel events here.


§ ita § - Jan 04, 2004 5:17:25 pm PST #7081 of 10001
Well not canonically, no, but this is transformative fiction.

I don't see any reason to assume the characters weren't told offscreen

That description works for Xander's big lie too, though.

I always assume that if we're meant to think, if some interpretation hinges on it, person A knows fact X, it will be explicitly presented to us, one way or another. Especially with Buffy, who's bad at communicating.


Susan W. - Jan 04, 2004 5:17:45 pm PST #7082 of 10001
Good Trouble and Righteous Fights

I didn't assume the other characters knew, but it wasn't their perspective that bothered me, it was the show's--IOW, on some level I can't quite articulate, I feel like the show itself was too hard on Buffy and not sufficiently hard on Riley throughout ItW and AYW.


Elena - Jan 04, 2004 5:20:33 pm PST #7083 of 10001
Thanks for all the fish.

The audience knew, and I don't see any reason to assume the characters weren't told offscreen.

See, I think that if it's never brought up again onsscreen the default assumption is the status quo. Because you could just as easily assume that Buffy was told about the big lie offscreen at any point during seasons 3-6, until we find out on screen during season 7 that she hasn't been told.

Giles, at least, should have been able to connect the dots between Riley's disappearance and Buffy's anger about consensual biting.

You think? Because I don't see it. Maybe because I need people to flat out tell me things.

I can't remember if it came up one way or another during AYW.

It didn't come up at all. Buffy didn't even mention it. Yet another reason why I dislike AYW.


Lyra Jane - Jan 04, 2004 5:22:00 pm PST #7084 of 10001
Up with the sun

And serial-posting..

I think that it's unfair to blame her friends for not being able to read Buffy's mind and basing their actions only on what they'd been told and seen.

I agree that we can't expect mind-reading. But in terms of dramatic form, everything the show tells us is that the breakup was Buffy's fault. It clearly wasn't, and the imbalance between what the audience sees (Buffy being understandably preoccupied by her mom's illness, Riley going out and cheating in a really terrible way) and what the characters say happened (Buffy withdrawing, Riley acting out in an understandable and forgivable way) interests me.


Elena - Jan 04, 2004 5:22:20 pm PST #7085 of 10001
Thanks for all the fish.

I didn't assume the other characters knew, but it wasn't their perspective that bothered me, it was the show's--IOW, on some level I can't quite articulate, I feel like the show itself was too hard on Buffy and not sufficiently hard on Riley throughout ItW and AYW.

Bingo, Susan.


Lyra Jane - Jan 04, 2004 5:24:15 pm PST #7086 of 10001
Up with the sun

Because you could just as easily assume that Buffy was told about the big lie offscreen at any point during seasons 3-6, until we find out on screen during season 7 that she hasn't been told.

I did assume this, actually. And went on assumign it until i posted the day after the ep aired and everyone explained to me that I had misread the scene.

I still think it's silly that it was kept a secret for four years, then came up in one conversation and never again, but that's my loathing for loose ends of the un-pointed variety.

it wasn't their perspective that bothered me, it was the show's--IOW, on some level I can't quite articulate,

THIS is what I am trying to articulate.


Katie M - Jan 04, 2004 5:27:29 pm PST #7087 of 10001
I was charmed (albeit somewhat perplexed) by the fannish sensibility of many of the music choices -- it's like the director was trying to vid Canada. --loligo on the Olympic Opening Ceremonies

I agree that we can't expect mind-reading. But in terms of dramatic form, everything the show tells us is that the breakup was Buffy's fault. It clearly wasn't, and the imbalance between what the audience sees (Buffy being understandably preoccupied by her mom's illness, Riley going out and cheating in a really terrible way) and what the characters say happened (Buffy withdrawing, Riley acting out in an understandable and forgivable way) interests me.

I think the problem - and this was my problem with Riley pretty much from when I came into the show in mid-S4, though I am part of the minority that was *less* irritated with him when he went off the deep end in S5 - is that we were getting Riley's POV on events. It was at its worst in S4, when we lost any grip on a character arc for Buffy in favor of Mister New Character This Season, but it pops up again in ItW when we're really more asked to see things from his point of view than hers.


Susan W. - Jan 04, 2004 5:27:43 pm PST #7088 of 10001
Good Trouble and Righteous Fights

THIS is what I am trying to articulate.

And articulated very well--that's exactly what I meant. It's like the show showed one thing and told the exact opposite.


askye - Jan 04, 2004 5:28:04 pm PST #7089 of 10001
Thrive to spite them

Buffy tends to shut down in a crisis and not talk about what's going on inside her head. I assumed that she did't tell anyone about Riley becaus that fits with how she's handled other sitatutions.


Steph L. - Jan 04, 2004 5:30:00 pm PST #7090 of 10001
I look more rad than Lutheranism

I agree with Elena (although she's trying to steal Spider-Man from me, but that's a different thread) -- I don't think the viewer is ever supposed to assume information was revealed offscreen if we never see the characters acting as though they have this new knowledge. That puts way too much of the onus on the viewer, and, frankly, is sloppy storytelling. And I also don't think Xander's Big Lie OR Riley's A Suckjob Ho were revealed offscreen.

I feel like the show itself was too hard on Buffy and not sufficiently hard on Riley throughout ItW and AYW.

Preach it. In ItW, Riley acted as though it was Buffy's fault he had to go seek out suckjobs. Which, if he were going to human hookers, would never ever ever fly as an excuse, and should have been hammered on way harder w/r/t the suckjobs.