I don't think this was a perfect solution. I think it was the only solution, and has already done more harm than good, because in the doing, they were able to save the world.

Er, Cindy, didn't you mean more good than harm?

Don't confuse me with facts when I'm drinking a nice Merlot, Matt (or Bruce, as I almost called you--who is Bruce?).

Yes, thank you. I meant it the other way around.

(Do other boards express admiration via cannibalism?)

There are other boards?

Ah. Misunderstanding crossed with duh-ness on my party.

They don't have anything to get beyond (that we know of).

I understood this as getting beyond their problems, not getting beyond their coping mechanisms.

Or does the message of having the power to let go of the bullshit apply only to Buffy (who is of course the whole point of the show)?

Lyra Jane gave a list here of the Scoobies getting over each of their issues.

I would say that no, we don't know that these girls have "Well, at least I can/am ____" coping mechanisms that hold them back somehow, but Joss demonstrated that each of the Scoobies did. This gets into "We don't know that the girls didn't have "Special" issues, either." The show is about Buffy, but also about things we all go through.

And, now that I think about it, one of my friends tonight (offline) reminded me of one of my particular "I'm special" issues and how it harms me. Huh. This is the part where I hear Giles in my head saying "a synchronicity bordering on predestination..."

****

A 'flutter' moment not mentioned, I think. When Tara and Willow joined hands and sent that drink machine slamming against the door.

Also, camera panning to reveal "Was it good for you?" scrawled in blood on the wall.

(puts hands up)

OK, I cede! I was pushing a little at some points of Plei's idea, in writing-workshop style, to make them stronger and hold up for a larger, less biased audience. I was doing this because I think she's got something good here, something worth thinking about and discussing. I'm not going to defend a stance I didn't take (that females should be kept down): I re-stated my position in my previous post, and it was still misunderstood. So I give up.

I'm also not attacking Plei, or Joss, or the show, just in case that was also misunderstood.

OK, I cede! I was pushing a little at some points of Plei's idea, in writing-workshop style, to make them stronger and hold up for a larger, less biased audience. I was doing this because I think she's got something good here, something worth thinking about and discussing. I'm not going to defend a stance I didn't take (that females should be kept down): I re-stated my position in my previous post, and it was still misunderstood. So I give up.

I didn't have much of a response (because I was at work, and therefore braindead) at the time, but I still don't expect the metaphor to map exactly. I mean, given the time and desire to expand it beyond Buffy herself (and I think can be extended to Xander and Willow, but explicitly *NOT* to Spike, which is a story for another thread), I could, but, to be frank, the montage o' female empowerment wouldn't be something I touched on in anything more than an exploring-it-as-symbolism way. (In which case, I'd just say what Micole said about the sharing of power.)

This is partly because, wank or no, S7 still leaves me somewhat cold, and I'd have to rewatch large portions of it when I have other things I'd rather be doing. It's also partly because, as I said, show not called Scoobie Gang, or Potentials, show called Buffy, and so while no, it doesn't only apply to Buffy, she's still the most important POV of the show.

I'm not going to defend a stance I didn't take (that females should be kept down): I re-stated my position in my previous post, and it was still misunderstood. So I give up.

FWIW, I didn't think you were taking that stance. It's just that the points you were making to take your stance are similar positions to those taken by people trying to keep any group X, from getting any power Y. I agreed with a lot of what you said. I think their solution is problematic. They didn't have time. They didn't have options. It was better than the alternative (i.e. keeping the status quo and letting the world end). I am sorry I made you feel like I was putting you in a stance you don't hold. I didn't intend to.

No worries...I brought it on myself by my shorthanding of what I meant.

Show not called The Scooby Gang, true, but because it's about Buffy every character on it should reflect (or refract?) her, in one way or another. Some should be what she could become if she chooses the good path, some should be what she could become if she chooses the evil path, some should represent things she wants but can't have, some should represent parts of her, etc. Some, like Spike, seem to offer an escape from the problems of being Buffy (s6) and then reflect her heroic choices back to her (S7). So I think it's cool that Lyra Jane mapped the Idea of Plei onto some of the other characters.

From Plei's original epiphany:

It's all about Power, but it's all about letting go of the things that have power over you.

And more recently:

given the time and desire to expand it beyond Buffy herself (and I think can be extended to Xander and Willow, but explicitly *NOT* to Spike, which is a story for another thread)

Sure you can, at least withing the seven seasons of Buffy (S5 AtS not included). At the end of S6 Spike went (supposedly) to seek his soul, because Buffy "made him weak." So he got his soul, his "power", but found out he still was weak. It was still "God help [him], all about you, Buffy." He didn't need to get the soul, he didn't need to get rid of it, he needed to let go of Buffy, because Buffy is who had power over him. Chosen, presumably, was showing him letting go of Buffy. He gave up his childish, high school (we met Spike in high school) things and the power they had over him. He used his power (the amulet) to let go of what had power over him (Buffy).

Well, as it's my theory, and I cannot view the character exclusive of the continuing arc, I think Chosen, more than Grave, indicates the beginning of his journey vis a vis letting go, not the end.

But my thoughts on Spike, as I said, belong in another thread.

(I'll hop over to Angel when I get back from a short jaunt to Canada and put them down there. It's all related, which is why I'm very, very insistent about leaving him out for the moment.)

(It's sort of a unified theory of ME.)

Far be it from me to dissuade you from completing your unified theory. And that's why I excluded S5 AtS. I don't really see that much of what has happened to Spike so far is carrying forward from Chosen. It seems mostly like regression. Hence, I'm very curious to see how you see Spike's journey progressing and how/if it pertains to the "power" theory. Also, how much that might change with future episodes of Angel.