There is a sentence that kind of relates to this immediate discussion way down there somewhere, but I wrote this a while ago pre-the "was she a victim" discussion going on now.

I was going to weigh in on this earlier - but didn't 'cause I got all freaked. But now I am not only drinking wine, but on a strange and different computer (my parents') and my change of scenery (and the wine) is making me feel all brave.

First, this discussion, as often times as I have read it, is always interesting. This go-round was in particular because I was catching up on 110 messages and read it straight through and it really reminded me of why I loved lurking here - and why I finally delurked.

I agree with lots of what Cindy had to say, as usual, but I also have to agree with Hec (and others) that I can't see Spike ever wanting a vamp!Buffy. I think that he wanted her to choose to be like him of her own will, like he was choosing to be more like her of his own will (I know, the chip, but the chip didn't make him care about Dawn). In a sense, this makes what Buffy told him in Touched very true, that he wanted her because she was "unattainable."

The AR made "sense" to me narratively. (And please, no one think that I am saying it was OK or a good decision, I'm just talkin' bout the storytelling.) It made sense, because of exactly what he said to her - that when they were having sex he sensed something that felt like love to him - and that was what he was trying to make her "feel." Sick and wrong, YES, but what about them wasn't at that point?. So, again, to me, it made sense.

They handled it somewhat poorly in S7, I agree. But I understood Buffy's desire to help and support Spike even then and I didn't feel like they were betraying my favorite character (Buffy) whom I never saw as a bitch for how she treated my *other* favorite character (Spike). I have deleted about 5 different sentences trying to explain why I never saw a need for a scene where she forgives him or why it wouldn't have bugged me to see them sleep together again. But - my take is she stopped feeling close to everyone after coming back from the dead, and hating Spike would have meant being completely alone. And she couldn't do it. She still had love for the rest of them, but she didn't understand them and they didn't understand her. As awful as the AR was for her, there was something at the root of it that she understood that no one else could - call it 7 years of having a pre-historic-black-cloudy-demon-that-makes-you-a-slayer inside of ya, or 7 years of witnessing the violence between vampires and humans. But for me, Buffy could deal with it, understand that it wasn't her fault, and still be OK with calling Spike a "hottie" because...she's Buffy. How is that for wishy-washy circular reasoning?

Here is the other thing: I had absolutely no idea what anyone here was talking about when they would talk about the crazy Spike/Buffy side of the fandom. I get that that extreme side of this part of the fandom is big with the annoyance. And the folks who seem to have the most experience with them and are most annoyed are people whose judgement about this I trust completely. I have no personal experience, I only travel where Buffistas tell me it is safe to go. But I just hate to see so much friction and defensiveness over this when it was such a huge part of the overall story of the show we're all talking about. And I'm certainly not talking about this discussion in particular but just a general sense of people (meaning me) being reluctant to say anything positive about Spike or Spike/Buffy because they have to explain that they are not psycho Spuffists like I am doing right now.

Finally, very nice thoughts on Spike's character DCJ.

And I think this might be my longest post ever - uhm, except for that one about getting arrested.

And (really) finally, I hate PCs. Where is the freaking Apple button on these things? And what is that other button on the mouse for?

edited because I just noticed I had two finallys

And what is that other button on the mouse for?

The other button is a thing of beauty. The hardest thing for me when using my G4 is remembering that I can't just right click to get to my freaking context menu.

But for me, Buffy could deal with it, understand that it wasn't her fault, and still be OK with calling Spike a "hottie" because...she's Buffy. How is that for wishy-washy circular reasoning?

In the first half of the season, before it all turned to crap, I saw it as her making peace with everything that had happened in S6. She's had a summer to recover, think it over, and admit to herself that she cared more than she wanted to admit, and that was part of the hurt with both the violation of friend/fuck barriers (Entropy), and the worse violation of the attempted rape.

But, then they stopped showing me, and just started telling me, and I got cranky. Asshats.

The implication I got from the deleted scene was that he planned on, umm, well, making her feel it, consent be damned.

Sorry for being so dense. I wasn't really paying attention to where Smashed occurred in the storyline.

The implication here (and I remember talking about this when we first heard about this outtake) is definitely that Spike considers a stun gun to be part of his normal romantic evening. This is consistant with both his line in Lover's Walk about tying up Drusilla and torturing her until she loves him, and the actual tying up and threatening he did when Drusilla returned.

This is what I think we can call Fury!Spike. But also the whole original conception of Spike and Dru as a perverse Sid and Nancy inversion of romance.

So...folks that think Spike is merely a misunderstood puppy would have had a canonical moment (not the only one, however) where it was made explicit that Spike was capable of rape.

See, that didn't mean that much to me because obviously Spike was capable of rape. Why would he have a scruple about that if he killed children on a regular basis? Except, I know plenty of Buffistas who had it in mind that Spike was not capable of the attack in Seeing Red, and saw it out of character. I never did though.

But I see your point, it was a mistake not to drop an anvil there because clearly the writers always thought that a soulless Spike was capable of every evil.

The other button is a thing of beauty. The hardest thing for me when using my G4 is remembering that I can't just right click to get to my freaking context menu.

You can get a programmable/setable multi-button mouse....

But, then they stopped showing me, and just started telling me, and I got cranky. Asshats.

You have me sold on this. It was hard for me to see at first. I knew I wasn't enjoying the middle part of this season as much as I had others. But this was my first season of Buffy where I, uhm, went over the edge a bit. It was the DVDs. I had never had access to that much Buffy at one time. (I wasn't a taper.) So I was in complete and total psycho-love with the whole show through a lot of this season. And reading the big end-o-season debate about telling but not showing really made me see why I didn't enjoy a good chunk of S7.

See, that didn't mean that much to me because obviously Spike was capable of rape. Why would he have a scruple about that if he killed children on a regular basis?

This is me. In that, as much as I loved Spike, I still thought he was evil.

Sorry for being so dense. I wasn't really paying attention to where Smashed occurred in the storyline.

Again with the PHBBT! (blinks sweetly). You obviously aren't one of us who wore out that portion of our tape. Because, of course, those last ten minutes? Still fucking hot. (As are: Faith torturing Wes, Riley staking Spike, and Wes shooting his hand out to grab Lilah's neck. Because bad things feel good.)

But I see your point, it was a mistake not to drop an anvil there because clearly the writers always thought that a soulless Spike was capable of every evil.

I'm still up in the air about the anvil. I mean, it was jarring in the context of the episode, makes perfect sense as part of the arc-as-a-whole.

So...folks that think Spike is merely a misunderstood puppy would have had a canonical moment (not the only one, however) where it was made explicit that Spike was capable of rape.

Specifically, of raping the person he loved, in this case, Buffy. It would have taken the affair into a whole new level of wrong. Hmm. Still not certain how I feel about that.

You can get a programmable/setable multi-button mouse....

Eh, I know. I just enjoy using the touchpad.

Why would he have a scruple about that if he killed children on a regular basis? Except, I know plenty of Buffistas who had it in mind that Spike was not capable of the attack in Seeing Red, and saw it out of character.

There are serial killers who have never raped, and serial rapists who have never killed, so to say that because Spike killed children, he must also have an inner rapist is just silly. I think Spike probably did rape a lot of his victims over the years, but it's not a logical conclusion you can draw from the girl-in-a-coalbin story. It's a logical conclusion you can draw from Crush, from Lover's Walk, from the fact that Angelus was his mentor, and from the vampire metaphor in general, but not from the fact that Spike killed kids.

And now, to pick a nit that's been picked countless times in the past year and a half...

"out of character" != "not capable of"

Not even a little bit. I argued that it was out of character -- I thought I was watching JM and SMG workshopping a scene from another show, I thought it was so out of character, for both of them. Not necessarily the act itself, but the anvilly After School Special, Rape Is Bad Boys And Girls So Don't Be Like Spike! execution. But I don't recall anyone saying they thought Spike was incapable of rape. I mostly recall people on the side of "it was in character" trying to make the point that evil = capable of rape --> in character, and people on the side of "I have no idea what show I just watched" pointing out the very nit I have just picked.

folks that think Spike is merely a misunderstood puppy would have had a canonical moment (not the only one, however) where it was made explicit that Spike was capable of rape.

Some, sure.

Here? I haven't seen it.

Not all evil people do all evil things to everyone.

In fact, none do.

Again with the PHBBT! (blinks sweetly). You obviously aren't one of us who wore out that portion of our tape. Because, of course, those last ten minutes? Still fucking hot. (As are: Faith torturing Wes, Riley staking Spike, and Wes shooting his hand out to grab Lilah's neck. Because bad things feel good.)

Heh. I've got surprisingly little porn value out of my BtVS and Angel watching. Vamp!Willow spun my number hard, so when she broke the fingers of that hench vamp, and absolutely when she tortured the puppy, and the infamous Menage a Chomp that Teppy is so fond of. After that...hmmm. Dru torturing Angel. Justine in the closet. I'm running out of kinky scenes I liked. See, my experience would've been very different if I were drawn by the sex appeal - as fans of Angel, Spike and Scruffy!Wes had.

It's a logical conclusion you can draw from Crush, from Lover's Walk, from the fact that Angelus was his mentor, and from the vampire metaphor in general, but not from the fact that Spike killed kids.

Fair enough. That was enough for me, and I think the writers felt that way about Spike. And as you note, there's other canonical evidence from which it would be a logical inference. Like I said, it was obvious to me that Spike would rape and had raped.