Again with the PHBBT! (blinks sweetly). You obviously aren't one of us who wore out that portion of our tape. Because, of course, those last ten minutes? Still fucking hot. (As are: Faith torturing Wes, Riley staking Spike, and Wes shooting his hand out to grab Lilah's neck. Because bad things feel good.)

Heh. I've got surprisingly little porn value out of my BtVS and Angel watching. Vamp!Willow spun my number hard, so when she broke the fingers of that hench vamp, and absolutely when she tortured the puppy, and the infamous Menage a Chomp that Teppy is so fond of. After that...hmmm. Dru torturing Angel. Justine in the closet. I'm running out of kinky scenes I liked. See, my experience would've been very different if I were drawn by the sex appeal - as fans of Angel, Spike and Scruffy!Wes had.

It's a logical conclusion you can draw from Crush, from Lover's Walk, from the fact that Angelus was his mentor, and from the vampire metaphor in general, but not from the fact that Spike killed kids.

Fair enough. That was enough for me, and I think the writers felt that way about Spike. And as you note, there's other canonical evidence from which it would be a logical inference. Like I said, it was obvious to me that Spike would rape and had raped.

Favorite kinky/porny BtVS scenes:

Angel biting Buffy in Grad. Part II
Angel and Spike and the kiss on the head (is that kinky? it wasn't directly porny, so I'm counting it)
Xander and Buffy in the Pack (but that is mostly just Xander being hot)
Angelus and Buffy kissing in I Only Have Eyes... (again, not straight up kinky, but still very twisted)
Fuffy and Spike
Spike and notquiteafullslayer!Buffy in Superstar when he taunts, touches her AND calls her Betty.

The tearing-down-the-house-sex was great until I re-watched it and was just super unimpressed with JM's acting. It's the morning after scene in Wrecked that I think he nailed (pun so completely intended).

edited because he calls her Betty I think, not Betsy.

Most of my fav badness involves Wes. I admit this.

I will note, however, that I didn't *start* watching for the sexy, nor is that why I kept watching. It was just a side benefit.

Heh. In terms of the show's kinkiness, I so loved it when Joyce went to Angel's home in "The Prom" and cast that dubious look at the chains on the wall.

One thing I always regretted was that the two of them didn't have more scenes interacting with each other.

I will note, however, that I didn't *start* watching for the sexy, nor is that why I kept watching. It was just a side benefit.

No, I didn't think so. But I was just realizing that that's a dimension that some folks get regularly from the show that I have not.

Having just rewatched "Normal Again", I am now wanking Season 7's Winnebago-sized plot holes, character inconsistencies & asspulls as Buffy's doctors using better drugs.

No, really. Once Sunnydale falls into the giant hole, she'll realize that it had a port but now it's in a desert. Then she wakes up and eventually pursues a career in Office Administration, goes out on weekends for Secretary Night at the karaoke bar, and develops an obsession with "The Rules".

Ok, so it's not a happy ending.

No, I didn't think so. But I was just realizing that that's a dimension that some folks get regularly from the show that I have not.

Amy Acker's ass also gives me pleasure.

So, you know, I could be easy.

One thing I am sort of realizing is that the ambiguity that ME played with in S6 is the sort of thing which is a very difficult to handle properly in a show which is broadcast. The audience is too broad, and finding the right balance between what would be an anvil, or what is too subtle or what is too dark, or what is (for the kinky minority like Ple and Me) not dark enough is almost impossible. Spike's sexual attack on Buffy is only the least manageable thing - primarily because it evokes so many personal responses separate from the narrative itself.

Like you noted Ple, the stun gun scene made sense in the season's arc but unwieldy in that actual episode. Those are the kind of balances which must have been so hard for them to hit.

I do think they got bogged down in S7 in ways where they wasted story time that they could have used to address that issue. It was probably a more important issue than what they thought was the S7 arc for Buffy (which Joss expressed as her aloneness or separateness). He also indicated that was part of him writing the character to the actor - which I do think has always been a factor with how people have seen Buffy as cold. Because they've sometimes sensed SMG's reserve and privacy in the character.

I do think they got bogged down in S7 in ways where they wasted story time that they could have used to address that issue. It was probably a more important issue than what they thought was the S7 arc for Buffy.

The Film-Force interview was pretty telling. Joss was defensive, but really didn't have much of a leg to stand on about the complaints regarding pacing, etc. Also, he basically admitted that they ignored a lot of shit to get that big moment with the activated potentials in Chosen. I agree, it is a fine line to balance. Just wish they'd bothered trying harder in S7.