Can we get somebody to do a chart showing how many times the Buffyboard has peaked on the attemped rape discussion? Because this must be about the eighth major go-round.

Still, it's civil (though touchy - as evidenced), and new people are checking in on the subject. Everybody please reach for their extra-civil voices since it is a very loaded and personal discussion.

I will note that I can't see an attemped vamping by Spike as having any resonance or being in character for Spike, for mostly the reasons Ken discussed. Buffy-without-a-soul would not be interesting to Spike. Also, S6 was about the very complexity that surrounds a relationship driven primarily by sex. I thought Seeing Red was the perfect culmination to the themes in play, that Spike was in character, and that the realistic brutality of the scene was purposeful to keep people from romanticizing it.

Like Ple, I think ME writers/Joss underestimated how carefully rape needs to be handled narratively and did not give it the thoughtful story attention it absolutely needed for S7.

As a comparison, I thought Joss was highly conscious that it would be cheating to bring Buffy back from the dead after The Gift with a wave of his narrative wand, and so he spent a lot of time and energy to show the effects of her sacrifice.

He did not bring that same care and attention to the consequences of rape for the characters in S7.

We'll need a permission slip from thessaly, first. Next to the International Sisterhood of Wives Who Flog and Punish, the Teamsters are a bunch of pussies. Wanna know where Jimmy Hoffa is buried? Has anyone asked his wife?

I get 10%.

IJS.

ION: Look Rocky! I just pulled a web site out of my a**!

Actually, if we count the past 24 hours, make that two.

Never marry someone who requires huge amounts of sweat equity in your field for a project. Links for all and sundry as soon as I move Victor's site to its intended resting place.

What was that about flogging again? Will you send me to a day spa while this is going on? Do they have a carpal tunnel spa treatment?

Can we get somebody to do a chart showing how many times the Buffyboard has peaked on the attemped rape discussion? Because this must be about the eighth major go-round.

Are we counting or not counting Spoilers? Did we ever discuss this during the PF exile?

Out of curiousity, Hec, do you think that in retrospect, the Big Honking Anvil of a deleted scene in Smashed should have remained? For anything other than the Roxy Music LP, that is.

Out of curiousity, Hec, do you think that in retrospect, the Big Honking Anvil of a deleted scene in Smashed should have remained? For anything other than the Roxy Music LP, that is.

Hmmm. I'll have to go read that again, and then think for a bit about how they could have handled it in S7. But my mileage is considerably different because my perspective has always been that Buffy was emotionally shocked and betrayed by Spike's action in Seeing Red but never felt in danger during that scene. Which really spins out a whole different set of responses than if you feel like she should respond or act like a rape victim, or even somebody who feels like they've been sexually attacked.

Spike did attack her sexually. I don't think Buffy felt sexually threatened. Or in danger of being raped. I think she felt betrayed and shocked. Which makes it easier for me to imagine narrative scenarios which allow Spike to be a part of her life in S7.

One reason we keep calling it an attempted rape is because Buffy is not a rape victim. I don't think she saw herself as victim of a sexual assault because Buffy didn't feel victimized.

But that's a fairly subjective response to a very loaded scene.

Hmm. I think your wank is not supported by canon, hon. Or at least not by the script directions/dialogue.

Buffy stands motionless, her eyes slick with anger -- and a tinge of fear from almost being violated.

Xander stands there, paralyzed, his fury giving way to concern for his friend. The downstairs door bangs shut. Buffy starts, extremely skittish.

And then from Beneath You

SPIKE

It's not. Look. I can't blame you for being all skittish.

BUFFY

"Skittish?" That's not a word I'd use for it. You tried to rape me.
(small)
I don't have the words.

(Also, I am reminded yet again that the original ending of Beneath You reads better than the rewritten mess of overwrought scenery canapes we got. Sigh.)

(And, painfully, reminded how much fucking promise S7 started with.)

Then maybe I'm reading too much of my confidence in Buffy as a character to have been really worried that Spike could have raped her. Because in my mind, he could not have. Not in that scenario, anyway.

I don't think the second quote negates my take - she knew he tried to rape her. The script direction in the first does indicate that it struck a fear chord in her, though carefully noting just a "tinge." I don't know - do you think she felt a tinge of fear when Xander came at her in The Pack? Because I didn't see that. Maybe the sexual attack by Spike got to her for a variety of reasons: Spike is closer to her in strength, it was more of a betrayal because of their sexual intimacy, and possibly it's just something that women have to consider more so it's there and present even if she doesn't have to worry while walking through dark parking lots.

But my reading of that scene is undoubtedly a reflection that I don't think Spike could rape her. Not one on one, without something other than physical coercion. Buffy would kick his ass around the block.

That doesn't change the nature of his action. I don't know how we're supposed to read Buffy's response to that. I guess the only clues are going to be in the script direction and what the writers reveal in interviews.

I don't know - do you think she felt a tinge of fear when Xander came at her in The Pack? Because I didn't see that.

It's canon that she does, at least a little, because Pack!Xander can smell it on her. Sure, she can still kick his ass into next month, but it's canon. So there. (Sticks tongue out Hec-ward, does the CANON dance, which is a hell of a lot like that one I did after Keeping It Real For My Peeps, Yo.)

But my reading of that scene is undoubtedly a reflection that I don't think Spike could rape her. Not one on one, without something other than physical coercion. Buffy would kick his ass around the block.

They're really, really clear in the directions that she's not at her best when this starts. (Clear to the point of almost anvil time.) She hits both her injured back and her head, IIRC. Her reactions as I read them on viewing and rewatch reflected that.

Script's also clear about her compartmentalizing it right after it happens, though that's neither here nor there.

I think all we can take from the script is what they intended - not what they achieved.

I don't know how much it matters that Buffy felt fear. She felt fear facing The Master and Angelus too. She's a hero, she conquers her fear.

She conquered fear and she conquered hate
She turned dark night into day!
She made her blazing boytoy
A torch to light the way!