Can we get somebody to do a chart showing how many times the Buffyboard has peaked on the attemped rape discussion? Because this must be about the eighth major go-round.

Are we counting or not counting Spoilers? Did we ever discuss this during the PF exile?

Out of curiousity, Hec, do you think that in retrospect, the Big Honking Anvil of a deleted scene in Smashed should have remained? For anything other than the Roxy Music LP, that is.

Out of curiousity, Hec, do you think that in retrospect, the Big Honking Anvil of a deleted scene in Smashed should have remained? For anything other than the Roxy Music LP, that is.

Hmmm. I'll have to go read that again, and then think for a bit about how they could have handled it in S7. But my mileage is considerably different because my perspective has always been that Buffy was emotionally shocked and betrayed by Spike's action in Seeing Red but never felt in danger during that scene. Which really spins out a whole different set of responses than if you feel like she should respond or act like a rape victim, or even somebody who feels like they've been sexually attacked.

Spike did attack her sexually. I don't think Buffy felt sexually threatened. Or in danger of being raped. I think she felt betrayed and shocked. Which makes it easier for me to imagine narrative scenarios which allow Spike to be a part of her life in S7.

One reason we keep calling it an attempted rape is because Buffy is not a rape victim. I don't think she saw herself as victim of a sexual assault because Buffy didn't feel victimized.

But that's a fairly subjective response to a very loaded scene.

Hmm. I think your wank is not supported by canon, hon. Or at least not by the script directions/dialogue.

Buffy stands motionless, her eyes slick with anger -- and a tinge of fear from almost being violated.

Xander stands there, paralyzed, his fury giving way to concern for his friend. The downstairs door bangs shut. Buffy starts, extremely skittish.

And then from Beneath You

SPIKE

It's not. Look. I can't blame you for being all skittish.

BUFFY

"Skittish?" That's not a word I'd use for it. You tried to rape me.
(small)
I don't have the words.

(Also, I am reminded yet again that the original ending of Beneath You reads better than the rewritten mess of overwrought scenery canapes we got. Sigh.)

(And, painfully, reminded how much fucking promise S7 started with.)

Then maybe I'm reading too much of my confidence in Buffy as a character to have been really worried that Spike could have raped her. Because in my mind, he could not have. Not in that scenario, anyway.

I don't think the second quote negates my take - she knew he tried to rape her. The script direction in the first does indicate that it struck a fear chord in her, though carefully noting just a "tinge." I don't know - do you think she felt a tinge of fear when Xander came at her in The Pack? Because I didn't see that. Maybe the sexual attack by Spike got to her for a variety of reasons: Spike is closer to her in strength, it was more of a betrayal because of their sexual intimacy, and possibly it's just something that women have to consider more so it's there and present even if she doesn't have to worry while walking through dark parking lots.

But my reading of that scene is undoubtedly a reflection that I don't think Spike could rape her. Not one on one, without something other than physical coercion. Buffy would kick his ass around the block.

That doesn't change the nature of his action. I don't know how we're supposed to read Buffy's response to that. I guess the only clues are going to be in the script direction and what the writers reveal in interviews.

I don't know - do you think she felt a tinge of fear when Xander came at her in The Pack? Because I didn't see that.

It's canon that she does, at least a little, because Pack!Xander can smell it on her. Sure, she can still kick his ass into next month, but it's canon. So there. (Sticks tongue out Hec-ward, does the CANON dance, which is a hell of a lot like that one I did after Keeping It Real For My Peeps, Yo.)

But my reading of that scene is undoubtedly a reflection that I don't think Spike could rape her. Not one on one, without something other than physical coercion. Buffy would kick his ass around the block.

They're really, really clear in the directions that she's not at her best when this starts. (Clear to the point of almost anvil time.) She hits both her injured back and her head, IIRC. Her reactions as I read them on viewing and rewatch reflected that.

Script's also clear about her compartmentalizing it right after it happens, though that's neither here nor there.

I think all we can take from the script is what they intended - not what they achieved.

I don't know how much it matters that Buffy felt fear. She felt fear facing The Master and Angelus too. She's a hero, she conquers her fear.

She conquered fear and she conquered hate
She turned dark night into day!
She made her blazing boytoy
A torch to light the way!

Hmmm, okay, the outtakes from Smashed with Spike's marital aids, which include the stun gun and the chains. This scene makes more specific the things which were only alluded to by the characters - the reasons Buffy felt like she had descended into a dark place sexually. I think, though, that it only makes explicit what they'd already indicated by the handcuffs. But handcuffs are relatively tame in the ME-verse, since it's toyed with in Band Candy between Joyce and Ripper, and not much at all compared to Wes/Justine, or Dru's hot wax on Angel (that big crybaby!).

I don't know if it would've changed the reaction in fandom. If it isn't made explicit do most people really get what was happening between Spike and Buffy? They may have a sense that the B/S relationship is fucked up, but do they really understand the powerplay, the bottom and top play, the dominance and submission, that's going on? Would they understand the gray area surrounding Spike's attempt to rape Buffy? How if it's still the wrongest wrong thing, that in Spike's mind it might be rationalized (in a moment of desperation over losing her) as just further along the spectrum, rather than on the wrong side of a clear and bright line? That while Buffy's response is fearful and betrayed, that she can forgive Spike because...she understands his rationale, even as she knows it's weak?

I see her forgiveness coming from two things: she feels responsible for the gray zone she fostered with Spike (definitely NOT responsible for his actions there) and also, he made her feel alive when she felt dead. Because that sexual intimacy was real even if it wasn't love.

How that plays out in the metanarrative (woman forgives attempted rapist) is a different kind of question though, rather than the specific, and detailed one I saw in S6.

I still don't think they handled it well in S7.

I think all we can take from the script is what they intended - not what they achieved.

Well, yeah.

I don't know how much it matters that Buffy felt fear. She felt fear facing The Master and Angelus too. She's a hero, she conquers her fear.

I'm going to freely admit that I have no clue why the fact that she stuffs her fear into compartment A matters less than that she felt it in the first place. She may conquer her fear, but that doesn't mean the fear doesn't inform her actions and reactions.

She felt a very specific type of sexual fear in SR, and (if I wasn't too lazy to check, I would) possibly in The Pack. With SR, it affected her responses to Spike in Beneath You, or was intended to based on the information presented in the script.

It's in keeping with her responses to both S3 Angel and S7 Faith.