(Also, I am reminded yet again that the original ending of Beneath You reads better than the rewritten mess of overwrought scenery canapes we got. Sigh.)

(And, painfully, reminded how much fucking promise S7 started with.)

Then maybe I'm reading too much of my confidence in Buffy as a character to have been really worried that Spike could have raped her. Because in my mind, he could not have. Not in that scenario, anyway.

I don't think the second quote negates my take - she knew he tried to rape her. The script direction in the first does indicate that it struck a fear chord in her, though carefully noting just a "tinge." I don't know - do you think she felt a tinge of fear when Xander came at her in The Pack? Because I didn't see that. Maybe the sexual attack by Spike got to her for a variety of reasons: Spike is closer to her in strength, it was more of a betrayal because of their sexual intimacy, and possibly it's just something that women have to consider more so it's there and present even if she doesn't have to worry while walking through dark parking lots.

But my reading of that scene is undoubtedly a reflection that I don't think Spike could rape her. Not one on one, without something other than physical coercion. Buffy would kick his ass around the block.

That doesn't change the nature of his action. I don't know how we're supposed to read Buffy's response to that. I guess the only clues are going to be in the script direction and what the writers reveal in interviews.

I don't know - do you think she felt a tinge of fear when Xander came at her in The Pack? Because I didn't see that.

It's canon that she does, at least a little, because Pack!Xander can smell it on her. Sure, she can still kick his ass into next month, but it's canon. So there. (Sticks tongue out Hec-ward, does the CANON dance, which is a hell of a lot like that one I did after Keeping It Real For My Peeps, Yo.)

But my reading of that scene is undoubtedly a reflection that I don't think Spike could rape her. Not one on one, without something other than physical coercion. Buffy would kick his ass around the block.

They're really, really clear in the directions that she's not at her best when this starts. (Clear to the point of almost anvil time.) She hits both her injured back and her head, IIRC. Her reactions as I read them on viewing and rewatch reflected that.

Script's also clear about her compartmentalizing it right after it happens, though that's neither here nor there.

I think all we can take from the script is what they intended - not what they achieved.

I don't know how much it matters that Buffy felt fear. She felt fear facing The Master and Angelus too. She's a hero, she conquers her fear.

She conquered fear and she conquered hate
She turned dark night into day!
She made her blazing boytoy
A torch to light the way!

Hmmm, okay, the outtakes from Smashed with Spike's marital aids, which include the stun gun and the chains. This scene makes more specific the things which were only alluded to by the characters - the reasons Buffy felt like she had descended into a dark place sexually. I think, though, that it only makes explicit what they'd already indicated by the handcuffs. But handcuffs are relatively tame in the ME-verse, since it's toyed with in Band Candy between Joyce and Ripper, and not much at all compared to Wes/Justine, or Dru's hot wax on Angel (that big crybaby!).

I don't know if it would've changed the reaction in fandom. If it isn't made explicit do most people really get what was happening between Spike and Buffy? They may have a sense that the B/S relationship is fucked up, but do they really understand the powerplay, the bottom and top play, the dominance and submission, that's going on? Would they understand the gray area surrounding Spike's attempt to rape Buffy? How if it's still the wrongest wrong thing, that in Spike's mind it might be rationalized (in a moment of desperation over losing her) as just further along the spectrum, rather than on the wrong side of a clear and bright line? That while Buffy's response is fearful and betrayed, that she can forgive Spike because...she understands his rationale, even as she knows it's weak?

I see her forgiveness coming from two things: she feels responsible for the gray zone she fostered with Spike (definitely NOT responsible for his actions there) and also, he made her feel alive when she felt dead. Because that sexual intimacy was real even if it wasn't love.

How that plays out in the metanarrative (woman forgives attempted rapist) is a different kind of question though, rather than the specific, and detailed one I saw in S6.

I still don't think they handled it well in S7.

I think all we can take from the script is what they intended - not what they achieved.

Well, yeah.

I don't know how much it matters that Buffy felt fear. She felt fear facing The Master and Angelus too. She's a hero, she conquers her fear.

I'm going to freely admit that I have no clue why the fact that she stuffs her fear into compartment A matters less than that she felt it in the first place. She may conquer her fear, but that doesn't mean the fear doesn't inform her actions and reactions.

She felt a very specific type of sexual fear in SR, and (if I wasn't too lazy to check, I would) possibly in The Pack. With SR, it affected her responses to Spike in Beneath You, or was intended to based on the information presented in the script.

It's in keeping with her responses to both S3 Angel and S7 Faith.

Hmmm, okay, the outtakes from Smashed with Spike's marital aids, which include the stun gun and the chains. This scene makes more specific the things which were only alluded to by the characters - the reasons Buffy felt like she had descended into a dark place sexually.

But the deleted scene in Smashed happens after he calls her, but before the house-shattering nookie.

The implication I got from the deleted scene was that he planned on, umm, well, making her feel it, consent be damned.

She rode Spike like a saddle,
She had an axe; went far
Her Job to oft do battle
With vamps, without a car.

There is a sentence that kind of relates to this immediate discussion way down there somewhere, but I wrote this a while ago pre-the "was she a victim" discussion going on now.

I was going to weigh in on this earlier - but didn't 'cause I got all freaked. But now I am not only drinking wine, but on a strange and different computer (my parents') and my change of scenery (and the wine) is making me feel all brave.

First, this discussion, as often times as I have read it, is always interesting. This go-round was in particular because I was catching up on 110 messages and read it straight through and it really reminded me of why I loved lurking here - and why I finally delurked.

I agree with lots of what Cindy had to say, as usual, but I also have to agree with Hec (and others) that I can't see Spike ever wanting a vamp!Buffy. I think that he wanted her to choose to be like him of her own will, like he was choosing to be more like her of his own will (I know, the chip, but the chip didn't make him care about Dawn). In a sense, this makes what Buffy told him in Touched very true, that he wanted her because she was "unattainable."

The AR made "sense" to me narratively. (And please, no one think that I am saying it was OK or a good decision, I'm just talkin' bout the storytelling.) It made sense, because of exactly what he said to her - that when they were having sex he sensed something that felt like love to him - and that was what he was trying to make her "feel." Sick and wrong, YES, but what about them wasn't at that point?. So, again, to me, it made sense.

They handled it somewhat poorly in S7, I agree. But I understood Buffy's desire to help and support Spike even then and I didn't feel like they were betraying my favorite character (Buffy) whom I never saw as a bitch for how she treated my *other* favorite character (Spike). I have deleted about 5 different sentences trying to explain why I never saw a need for a scene where she forgives him or why it wouldn't have bugged me to see them sleep together again. But - my take is she stopped feeling close to everyone after coming back from the dead, and hating Spike would have meant being completely alone. And she couldn't do it. She still had love for the rest of them, but she didn't understand them and they didn't understand her. As awful as the AR was for her, there was something at the root of it that she understood that no one else could - call it 7 years of having a pre-historic-black-cloudy-demon-that-makes-you-a-slayer inside of ya, or 7 years of witnessing the violence between vampires and humans. But for me, Buffy could deal with it, understand that it wasn't her fault, and still be OK with calling Spike a "hottie" because...she's Buffy. How is that for wishy-washy circular reasoning?

Here is the other thing: I had absolutely no idea what anyone here was talking about when they would talk about the crazy Spike/Buffy side of the fandom. I get that that extreme side of this part of the fandom is big with the annoyance. And the folks who seem to have the most experience with them and are most annoyed are people whose judgement about this I trust completely. I have no personal experience, I only travel where Buffistas tell me it is safe to go. But I just hate to see so much friction and defensiveness over this when it was such a huge part of the overall story of the show we're all talking about. And I'm certainly not talking about this discussion in particular but just a general sense of people (meaning me) being reluctant to say anything positive about Spike or Spike/Buffy because they have to explain that they are not psycho Spuffists like I am doing right now.

Finally, very nice thoughts on Spike's character DCJ.

And I think this might be my longest post ever - uhm, except for that one about getting arrested.

And (really) finally, I hate PCs. Where is the freaking Apple button on these things? And what is that other button on the mouse for?

edited because I just noticed I had two finallys