Sigh.

Had a long post, board ate it.

Right. So. Basically, what Cindy said is what I was getting at, and I'm sorry if that felt like downplaying the real pain that you're going through at the moment, Kassto. Your wording made me bristle, because it did feel like it downplayed non-consentual sexual or physical violence if it was infrequent.

Um...

ETA Never mind

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Lost track of what thread I was in. Much apologies. I deserve to be flogged. And not by a profesional.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Lost track of what thread I was in. Much apologies. I deserve to be flogged. And not by a profesional.

It can be done.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Lost track of what thread I was in. Much apologies. I deserve to be flogged. And not by a profesional.

We'll need a permission slip from thessaly, first. Next to the International Sisterhood of Wives Who Flog and Punish, the Teamsters are a bunch of pussies. Wanna know where Jimmy Hoffa is buried? Has anyone asked his wife?

Can we get somebody to do a chart showing how many times the Buffyboard has peaked on the attemped rape discussion? Because this must be about the eighth major go-round.

Still, it's civil (though touchy - as evidenced), and new people are checking in on the subject. Everybody please reach for their extra-civil voices since it is a very loaded and personal discussion.

I will note that I can't see an attemped vamping by Spike as having any resonance or being in character for Spike, for mostly the reasons Ken discussed. Buffy-without-a-soul would not be interesting to Spike. Also, S6 was about the very complexity that surrounds a relationship driven primarily by sex. I thought Seeing Red was the perfect culmination to the themes in play, that Spike was in character, and that the realistic brutality of the scene was purposeful to keep people from romanticizing it.

Like Ple, I think ME writers/Joss underestimated how carefully rape needs to be handled narratively and did not give it the thoughtful story attention it absolutely needed for S7.

As a comparison, I thought Joss was highly conscious that it would be cheating to bring Buffy back from the dead after The Gift with a wave of his narrative wand, and so he spent a lot of time and energy to show the effects of her sacrifice.

He did not bring that same care and attention to the consequences of rape for the characters in S7.

We'll need a permission slip from thessaly, first. Next to the International Sisterhood of Wives Who Flog and Punish, the Teamsters are a bunch of pussies. Wanna know where Jimmy Hoffa is buried? Has anyone asked his wife?

I get 10%.

IJS.

ION: Look Rocky! I just pulled a web site out of my a**!

Actually, if we count the past 24 hours, make that two.

Never marry someone who requires huge amounts of sweat equity in your field for a project. Links for all and sundry as soon as I move Victor's site to its intended resting place.

What was that about flogging again? Will you send me to a day spa while this is going on? Do they have a carpal tunnel spa treatment?

Can we get somebody to do a chart showing how many times the Buffyboard has peaked on the attemped rape discussion? Because this must be about the eighth major go-round.

Are we counting or not counting Spoilers? Did we ever discuss this during the PF exile?

Out of curiousity, Hec, do you think that in retrospect, the Big Honking Anvil of a deleted scene in Smashed should have remained? For anything other than the Roxy Music LP, that is.

Out of curiousity, Hec, do you think that in retrospect, the Big Honking Anvil of a deleted scene in Smashed should have remained? For anything other than the Roxy Music LP, that is.

Hmmm. I'll have to go read that again, and then think for a bit about how they could have handled it in S7. But my mileage is considerably different because my perspective has always been that Buffy was emotionally shocked and betrayed by Spike's action in Seeing Red but never felt in danger during that scene. Which really spins out a whole different set of responses than if you feel like she should respond or act like a rape victim, or even somebody who feels like they've been sexually attacked.

Spike did attack her sexually. I don't think Buffy felt sexually threatened. Or in danger of being raped. I think she felt betrayed and shocked. Which makes it easier for me to imagine narrative scenarios which allow Spike to be a part of her life in S7.

One reason we keep calling it an attempted rape is because Buffy is not a rape victim. I don't think she saw herself as victim of a sexual assault because Buffy didn't feel victimized.

But that's a fairly subjective response to a very loaded scene.