Buffistas know everything. When I was new, I would have googled Dogme. I've become complacent, these days.

Article:

Why "Buffy The Vampire Slayer" will be the next Star Trek

"...With series creator Joss Whedon maintaining firm control over Buffy (and its spin-off, Angel), much like Gene Roddenberry did for Star Trek until his death, its unlikely that Buffy The Vampire Slayer will be tainted by the money masters at 20th Century Fox anytime soon.

So, the signs are there. An innovative show, building an audience in repeats, with fan clubs the world over, is poised to take the mantle from Star Trek and create a new version of that old phenomenon. "

In my opinion, the attempted rape and the beating in the alley are equally bad and equally requiring of forgiveness.

And when you add up everything that happened in the S/B relationship, I think she has more to be forgiven for. And not just because she's the heroine and is supposed to KNOW what good behaviour is.

But the attempted rape becomes this huge thing, and the alley beating is just forgotten. Spike turns up at Buffy's birthday sporting a massive shiner after that incident, but nothing is said about it by anyone. It's like it meant nothing. Buffy even acted flirtatiously with Spike. And then people wonder why she could ever forgive him for his actions. I was so pleased in CwDP when Buffy finally confessed to shrink!vamp: ``I behaved like a monster to him.'' And conversely, he behaved like a (very flawed, insecure, screwed up) man to her. The thing that bothers me the most about her behaviour was her total denial of him, as in: I am going to use your body for my purposes, but I totally deny your worth on any level, except for when I want your help, which you will give to me without question.

If someone asked me, as a woman and one who is not afraid of asserting herself, whether a relationship I was in could recover from a brutal beating or an attempted rape, my answer would be: Maybe, and it depends. It would depend on whole lots of complicated things, including very visceral, gut reactions to things like force and power.

I am currently having to decide whether to take back a husband who left me and our two small children six months ago for another woman. I consider that betrayal to be a lot worse than a one-off incident of violence or sexual violence. But that's me. We all react differently. The only time my husband ever tried to use force on me -- he was trying very hard to stop me leaving a room during an argument, and he's a lot stronger than me -- I was very angry but also quite exhilarated by the confrontation. But that's my issue. Relationship heartaches for me in the past have always involved the other person withdrawing from me, so I fear that much more than physical confrontation.

That's what I meant when I said in my long post last night that reactions to S/B can be very very personal ones. As mine are.

Cool article, Daniel, thanks for sharing. When he says "see you at the convention, scoobs", does he mean any convention in particular, or is he just riffing on Trek's method of keeping the dream alive?

But, this isn't really a point system. If it were, Spike would be sooo fucked. The beating in the alley + the rape does not make them "even."

You'd have to forget seasons 1 through 5 to come to that conclusion. He spent years trying to kill her. Do we really want to play the game where we add up Spike's evil deed list, Buffy's evil deed list, and whomever's is shorter wins? Do we add points for lives saved, and bonus points for central character's lives saved? Is there a diamond jubilee round for dying while doing a good deed?

Because, well, Buffy's going to come out way ahead.

Also, didn't he encourage the beating in the alley as a further step in his "be dark like me" hopes? He smiled about it, didn't tell her to stop.

She ended the bad relationship, apologized for it. She came clean. He still wanted more. She kept saying no. He thought he could convince her, likely due to having convinced her to continue, before. The beating in the alley was an allusion to the beating Baith gave Fuffy, beating the image of everything she hated about herself.

Rape is much different in its essence than the beating. The beating was borne of self-hatred. Rape is power over another person's body, taking ownership of someone's being.

What Allyson said.

I think, if he had tried to turn her into a vampire, I would have bought it as a desperate act, and more in tune with the character, and also as a catalyst for him saying, "If I can't change her, I need to change me."

Maybe, but I think Spike never wanted Vamp!Buffy - probably would never have had a remote interest. That's why I never would have bought an attempted turning - that wasn't what he was trying to get out of her. There are a whole lot of issues with this ep, but I never had a problem with him trying to force himself on her vs. trying to turn her.

And actually, if season 7 had been more consistent, the revelations about his mother would have made it clear that he already knew he wouldn't like how Buffy would turn out if he turned her.

In fact - Spike in general (and when not under the power of the FE), never big with the whole turning thing that they've ever shown. Other than Ford, who he'd promised (and, hey, he actually kept that promise), the only other instance I remember was when he gave Willow the option. And as the aftermath of that proved, I think Spike always liked Willow (not in a sexual way - I just think he liked her, in his fashion) which is why I think he gave her the option.

The big difference I see between the AR and the alley beating is that Spike consented to the beating. I don't remember the details, because I have no wish to watch any part of the Wrecked-Seeing Red part of S6 ever again. So, I couldn't say anymore whether his motive was A) "See, you're dark like me"; B) "Ooh, pain! I like it--sexy"; or C) "Buffy really needs to let this out and I'm the only one strong enough to survive it." Or, some combo of all three. But, he took it of his own free will.

And I'm saying this as one of the most vehement pro-Spike people on this board, and someone who still reads and loves good S/B fanfic. (I usually either mentally retcon the AR into an attempted vamping, or read stuff that breaks from canon at an earlier point.)

I don't think Spike would want Vamp!buffy, just like he wouldn't have wanted raped!Buffy. However, they're the ends of his be-like-me and his sex-me quests -- I just like the first quest better, narratively. Whatever he tried would have to be something he regretted, after all.