What Allyson said.

I think, if he had tried to turn her into a vampire, I would have bought it as a desperate act, and more in tune with the character, and also as a catalyst for him saying, "If I can't change her, I need to change me."

Maybe, but I think Spike never wanted Vamp!Buffy - probably would never have had a remote interest. That's why I never would have bought an attempted turning - that wasn't what he was trying to get out of her. There are a whole lot of issues with this ep, but I never had a problem with him trying to force himself on her vs. trying to turn her.

And actually, if season 7 had been more consistent, the revelations about his mother would have made it clear that he already knew he wouldn't like how Buffy would turn out if he turned her.

In fact - Spike in general (and when not under the power of the FE), never big with the whole turning thing that they've ever shown. Other than Ford, who he'd promised (and, hey, he actually kept that promise), the only other instance I remember was when he gave Willow the option. And as the aftermath of that proved, I think Spike always liked Willow (not in a sexual way - I just think he liked her, in his fashion) which is why I think he gave her the option.

The big difference I see between the AR and the alley beating is that Spike consented to the beating. I don't remember the details, because I have no wish to watch any part of the Wrecked-Seeing Red part of S6 ever again. So, I couldn't say anymore whether his motive was A) "See, you're dark like me"; B) "Ooh, pain! I like it--sexy"; or C) "Buffy really needs to let this out and I'm the only one strong enough to survive it." Or, some combo of all three. But, he took it of his own free will.

And I'm saying this as one of the most vehement pro-Spike people on this board, and someone who still reads and loves good S/B fanfic. (I usually either mentally retcon the AR into an attempted vamping, or read stuff that breaks from canon at an earlier point.)

I don't think Spike would want Vamp!buffy, just like he wouldn't have wanted raped!Buffy. However, they're the ends of his be-like-me and his sex-me quests -- I just like the first quest better, narratively. Whatever he tried would have to be something he regretted, after all.

Can I just say, for the record, how much I hate the abbreviation "AR"? To me, it reads like a way of dismissing the event -- if we can turn it into a breezy abbreviation, we don't have to use the word "rape" in discussing what happened.

Also, while I'm here Alyson Hannigan was just on The Daily Show, and talked at length about her fiancee, whose name Jon Stewart made fun of ("the heir to the Denisof fortune?").

I've been watching her pretty much all evening on FX. My favorite part has been when Jason Biggs tried to quote her line at her.

JB: What's my name bitch? AH: smirking Jerk.

JB: What's my name bitch? AH: smirking Jerk.

I was just watching that.

It's on for the second time here. Just kinda leaving it on in the background.

Also, I should have said in the last post. I understand (and I think it's come up before) the concern over not using the word rape when we talk about what Spike did to Buffy. I don't think it's meant to be a breezy acronym, I think it's just that it's such a well known event (I want to almost call it a trademark kinda thing) that we don't have to spell it out, so we don't. Much the same way we don't spell out actor's names, well we mostly don't.

But, Heather, there are plenty of well-known events: Angel goes to Hell; the school blows up; Xander lies; Buffy dies. These have all been discussed here and elsewhere for years without acronyms. Spike's attempted rape of Buffy is the only such event to get acronymed, and I think it's because of the reasons I listed above.