I thought the Buffy/Spike relationship was one of the most interesting things on the show. I've seen (hell, I've been in) relationships with the same type of motivation & self-destruction, and the whole thing read very true to me throughout S6. And if Buffy's forgiveness of Spike was shown as a blindspot, the same type of willful masochism that colored her sexual relationship with him, then I'd have loved it. But to have it be the same type of "she's right even when she's wrong cuz she's the slayer" meme just pissed me off. Because it seemed to say,

Hey, yeah, guys mess up because they have hormones and all, and sometimes they try to rape you & it's hard to forgive them, but if you have some sense that they're decent, then put yourself in situations where you're all alone with them and go to sleep in their arms - it'll be just fine.

Now, I know that's not what ME was trying to say, but rape's not something to be taken lightly, and non-supernatural events read differently in the Buffyverse. It's clear that ME understands that from the way they treated Joyce's death, and Faith's murder, and even Dawn's shoplifting. It just seems like they put little thought into how the AR & it's follow-up would read.

edited because I can't spell

The thing that muddied the waters so much was the soul getting. ME had for years shown the Angel and Angelus were different "people", or at least had shown that that was how Buffy thought, so they were then left with this precedent when Spike got souled up.

I know what Cindy means when she talks about Spike with a soul having the same face of Buffy's attempted rapist, but I think they stopped short of losing the place completely.

But here's my problem -- if they're the same person, then she's in love with her abusive ex. If they're different people, then she's in love with a crazy guy she just met.

ME wanted to have it both ways, and it screwed up S7 mightily.

Aye, but to be fair, she didn't exactly fall in love with mad souled up Spike the second she clapped eyes on him.

And getting a soul for her, is like the best chocolate and flowers ever.
However I see what your saying, it was a fine balancing act ME attempted, but at least they attempted it, which is more than you can say for 99% of the shite that's out there.

She's in love?

I never thought that.

But here's my problem -- if they're the same person, then she's in love with her abusive ex. If they're different people, then she's in love with a crazy guy she just met.

ME wanted to have it both ways, and it screwed up S7 mightily.

Yeah, that was a problem I had, too. Previously, the ME writers had always been very conciencious at showing that the characters' actions had consequences, and that characters had to pay for their crimes. Angel/Angelus went evil and killed Jenny (among others); he was sent to hell for a few centuries. Faith lied about accidentally killing a man, then went evil and purpously killed at least one guy; she was put into a coma, went on the run, and went to prison. Willow began using her magic to manipulate Tara's mind; she lost Tara and went into a tailspin.

Spike tried to rape Buffy and....gets babysitting duty and a a soul? I understand that Buffy herself might be guilty of blindness or poor judgement, but I wish that there had been some acknowledgement of this on the part of the show. Other than the doubts expressed by Wood and Giles, who were proven to be wrong.

She's in love?

Shorthand for...whatever she was feeling. My main point being that the consequences of Spike's soul was the sloppiest writing the show's ever seen.

I think if she were in love, I'd have an issue with it. As I saw it, she cared about him, and kinda maybe loved him, but there was no in. Which was okay with me.

I'm wondering from a very never-been-there perspective, but is a woman allowed to make peace with an attempted rapist? In fiction, or in the public eye?

Is it that there's no peace to be made, or that ME did it wrong, the way they took her from AR (which kinda still doesn't exist for me) to Chosen?

I didn't care so much that Spike himself didn't suffer consequences. He was an evil, souless thing, that for whatever reason, sought to change that. To me, that alone is impressive.

It all only bothers me when I'm looking at Buffy. Like UTTAD, I like characters to have flaws, even noble character, even the hero. I guess I would have liked a little more from Buffy herself, than "It's different. He has a soul now." I would have liked her to work out her feelings a little, or, I at least would have liked to have understood them better. Her telling me that she had feelings for him, didn't make me understand those feelings.

I wasn't unhappy with how it ended. My main concern never bore fruit (that is - that I'd have to watch her have sex with her attempted rapist). I liked that she was able, at the end, to free herself from being the one girl in all the world. I am fine with her saying she loved Spike, whether or not she was in love with him. I can buy that she had a sort of love for him, because although he did horrible things to her, he also did wonderful things with no thought of himself, at times (the beating at Glory's hand comes to mind).

I just wish instead of hearing another speech, or the umpteenth reiteration of "He has a soul now," I could have gotten something a little more meaty. I don't know how or what. Just something.

My main point being that the consequences of Spike's soul was the sloppiest writing the show's ever seen.

But the problem goes back further. Spike probably should have been staked twice during S6. (1) The AR in SR. As angry as Buffy was, it would have been very in character to throw him off her and then stake him in almost the same motion. (2) When he was unmasked as The Doctor in AYW. Riley could very easily have decided to neutralize Spike (as a threat to the world and to Buffy) by killing him.

But TPTB loved Spike (as played by JM) too much to let that happen.