My main point being that the consequences of Spike's soul was the sloppiest writing the show's ever seen.

But the problem goes back further. Spike probably should have been staked twice during S6. (1) The AR in SR. As angry as Buffy was, it would have been very in character to throw him off her and then stake him in almost the same motion. (2) When he was unmasked as The Doctor in AYW. Riley could very easily have decided to neutralize Spike (as a threat to the world and to Buffy) by killing him.

But TPTB loved Spike (as played by JM) too much to let that happen.

Your two points for death, Fred, are precisely the two most "which Spike are you writing?" moments for me in the entire 144 episodes. My Spike could have done other terrible things to fulfill the plot functions that wouldn't needed him to be staked (although the temptation would be there).

That's the worst part of Spike's story for me -- those stupidities.

I'm wondering from a very never-been-there perspective, but is a woman allowed to make peace with an attempted rapist? In fiction, or in the public eye?

Peace - just as accepting it, sure. Peace that involved the couple reuniting? Hmmmm. I've tried to think of ways. For example in a real life situation, I imagine if there were a horrible moment in a long, kind, loving, and good marriage depending on what happened, why the woman decided to make peace, what she understood/thought about the rape attempt, and what step the man took to (a) make sure it never happened again, and (b) make amends - it's possible.

In fiction, yes, if it could be set up correctly, although I think I'd rather not read it. In heroic fiction, I think it's very tough. Because in the end, I don't want my girl to want her would-be rapist.

Is it that there's no peace to be made, or that ME did it wrong, the way they took her from AR (which kinda still doesn't exist for me) to Chosen?

I think in Buffy's case, it would be an extremely hard peace to make, if that peace involves reunion. I am a little unsatisfied (but don't want to call it "wrong") with what we got, but still found it interesting. Had Buffy and Spike again had sex on-screen, I would have needed much, much more than we got.

I just wish instead of hearing another speech, or the umpteenth reiteration of "He has a soul now," I could have gotten something a little more meaty. I don't know how or what. Just something.

I agree. That, in itself, is a lame reason to place that much trust in someone. She needed to articulate things like "he chose to get a soul so that he could help us", "even without a soul, he was loyal to me", "i need someone who will always be there for me"

ITA Fred -- the Spike-writing issues went way back. By S6, he was being used entirely as Buffy's emotional flobatnum, and character continuity went out the window.

I also agree with Cindy that Buffy's repetition of "He has a soul now, it's different" and "I have feelings for him" were problems. That kind of writerly hand-waving can work with sticky plot points, but not the title character's emotions.

I think what's key for me, Cindy, is that I don't see a reunion. They're not doing what they were doing before the attempt, nor are they doing what they were each pretending to do.

They have something very different.

Another bad Spike point ... the fuzziness about the soul reclamation. Clean up those three points for me, and I'm pretty much all good.

I think what's key for me, Cindy, is that I don't see a reunion. They're not doing what they were doing before the attempt, nor are they doing what they were each pretending to do.

They have something very different.

That's why I'm not unhappy with it. I just think the execution, or revelation of Buffy's feelings could have been better. I think LMPTM probably came close for me, but not quite.

Perhaps, early on, had Spike said, "I can't help you fight this monster, because I can't bear to face you, because I know what I did to you," maybe not even to Buffy (because that could be interpreted as laying a guilt trip, perhaps to Xander, because he wasn't going to buy any bull from Spike, it would have helped. And had Buffy made some kind of explanation to him of their ground rules, or how she got past it enough to not want him to leave, I'd have been satisfied. I don't know.

Another bad Spike point ... the fuzziness about the soul reclamation. Clean up those three points for me, and I'm pretty much all good.

That misdirection really wasn't even misdirection - it is the perfect example to use to demonstrate almost everyone's complaints about the handling of Spike since season 4 (even though I don't usually mind what other people mind). That was disappointing. The demon eggs didn't bother me. That did. And it wasted the emotional impact of the great journey he was making (I mean REALLY! Can you imagine Angelus seeking a soul for ANY reason?), for a piddly, little surprise. Feh.

cereal...

When I say the misdirection wasn't misdirection, I mean it wasn't clever. It didn't misdirect, it faked. After the revelation of the surprise that follows a well done misdirect, the audience's reaction should be, "Wow. That fooled me. But I can't believe I didn't see the truth all along." This one? It still has people refusing to accept that they were writing Spike to get a soul all along. It's another (maybe the biggest) example of Plei's critique that they told us when they should have showed us.

Not to interrupt -- does anyone have recommendations for where I can find screencaps of The Wish? Google is a little disappointing.

[link]

Try there. You may have to copy and paste the URL into your browser's address bar.

They mention "The Wish" three times on that page. Good luck, Teppy.

Later, gators.