But here's my problem -- if they're the same person, then she's in love with her abusive ex. If they're different people, then she's in love with a crazy guy she just met.

ME wanted to have it both ways, and it screwed up S7 mightily.

Aye, but to be fair, she didn't exactly fall in love with mad souled up Spike the second she clapped eyes on him.

And getting a soul for her, is like the best chocolate and flowers ever.
However I see what your saying, it was a fine balancing act ME attempted, but at least they attempted it, which is more than you can say for 99% of the shite that's out there.

She's in love?

I never thought that.

But here's my problem -- if they're the same person, then she's in love with her abusive ex. If they're different people, then she's in love with a crazy guy she just met.

ME wanted to have it both ways, and it screwed up S7 mightily.

Yeah, that was a problem I had, too. Previously, the ME writers had always been very conciencious at showing that the characters' actions had consequences, and that characters had to pay for their crimes. Angel/Angelus went evil and killed Jenny (among others); he was sent to hell for a few centuries. Faith lied about accidentally killing a man, then went evil and purpously killed at least one guy; she was put into a coma, went on the run, and went to prison. Willow began using her magic to manipulate Tara's mind; she lost Tara and went into a tailspin.

Spike tried to rape Buffy and....gets babysitting duty and a a soul? I understand that Buffy herself might be guilty of blindness or poor judgement, but I wish that there had been some acknowledgement of this on the part of the show. Other than the doubts expressed by Wood and Giles, who were proven to be wrong.

She's in love?

Shorthand for...whatever she was feeling. My main point being that the consequences of Spike's soul was the sloppiest writing the show's ever seen.

I think if she were in love, I'd have an issue with it. As I saw it, she cared about him, and kinda maybe loved him, but there was no in. Which was okay with me.

I'm wondering from a very never-been-there perspective, but is a woman allowed to make peace with an attempted rapist? In fiction, or in the public eye?

Is it that there's no peace to be made, or that ME did it wrong, the way they took her from AR (which kinda still doesn't exist for me) to Chosen?

I didn't care so much that Spike himself didn't suffer consequences. He was an evil, souless thing, that for whatever reason, sought to change that. To me, that alone is impressive.

It all only bothers me when I'm looking at Buffy. Like UTTAD, I like characters to have flaws, even noble character, even the hero. I guess I would have liked a little more from Buffy herself, than "It's different. He has a soul now." I would have liked her to work out her feelings a little, or, I at least would have liked to have understood them better. Her telling me that she had feelings for him, didn't make me understand those feelings.

I wasn't unhappy with how it ended. My main concern never bore fruit (that is - that I'd have to watch her have sex with her attempted rapist). I liked that she was able, at the end, to free herself from being the one girl in all the world. I am fine with her saying she loved Spike, whether or not she was in love with him. I can buy that she had a sort of love for him, because although he did horrible things to her, he also did wonderful things with no thought of himself, at times (the beating at Glory's hand comes to mind).

I just wish instead of hearing another speech, or the umpteenth reiteration of "He has a soul now," I could have gotten something a little more meaty. I don't know how or what. Just something.

My main point being that the consequences of Spike's soul was the sloppiest writing the show's ever seen.

But the problem goes back further. Spike probably should have been staked twice during S6. (1) The AR in SR. As angry as Buffy was, it would have been very in character to throw him off her and then stake him in almost the same motion. (2) When he was unmasked as The Doctor in AYW. Riley could very easily have decided to neutralize Spike (as a threat to the world and to Buffy) by killing him.

But TPTB loved Spike (as played by JM) too much to let that happen.

Your two points for death, Fred, are precisely the two most "which Spike are you writing?" moments for me in the entire 144 episodes. My Spike could have done other terrible things to fulfill the plot functions that wouldn't needed him to be staked (although the temptation would be there).

That's the worst part of Spike's story for me -- those stupidities.

I'm wondering from a very never-been-there perspective, but is a woman allowed to make peace with an attempted rapist? In fiction, or in the public eye?

Peace - just as accepting it, sure. Peace that involved the couple reuniting? Hmmmm. I've tried to think of ways. For example in a real life situation, I imagine if there were a horrible moment in a long, kind, loving, and good marriage depending on what happened, why the woman decided to make peace, what she understood/thought about the rape attempt, and what step the man took to (a) make sure it never happened again, and (b) make amends - it's possible.

In fiction, yes, if it could be set up correctly, although I think I'd rather not read it. In heroic fiction, I think it's very tough. Because in the end, I don't want my girl to want her would-be rapist.

Is it that there's no peace to be made, or that ME did it wrong, the way they took her from AR (which kinda still doesn't exist for me) to Chosen?

I think in Buffy's case, it would be an extremely hard peace to make, if that peace involves reunion. I am a little unsatisfied (but don't want to call it "wrong") with what we got, but still found it interesting. Had Buffy and Spike again had sex on-screen, I would have needed much, much more than we got.