Instead he tries to rape Buffy, and comes across like a man rather than a demon; like a souled man who is drunk, desperate, stupid and wrong. And plenty of men with souls commit rape.

Yes, that!

I think this is also the reason so many people got upset that Buffy was able to forgive Spike. Because it read as though ME endorsed forgiving a man who commits a rape because he is drunk, desperate, and stupid.

I don't believe rape is worse than murder or torture. However, the murders & tortures that happen in the Buffyverse are removed from reality. None of us will ever be murdered because we're trying to restore somebody's soul or tortured because we have information about releasing an ancient demon. So seeing those behaviors forgiven isn't likely to lead anyone to think that those things are OK in real life.

However, I know at least two women who have been assaulted by ex-boyfriends who thought this strategy might renew the relationship. Those relationships are never going to become something healthy. Not necessarily because the guys are evil, nor because the women are victims, but because the relationship itself has become so diseased that it can't return to anything healthy, no matter who travels to Africa. And the way the AR was treated was too damned close to real life. That may also be why it bothered people more than Willow's mind-wipe - because that mind-wipe thing is never going to happen outside of the Buffyverse.

Ironically, the fact that JM is such a good actor contributed to this. He was able to find so much sympathy for the character that the viewers identified with him and understood why he was doing what he was doing. Even while we knew it was despicable.

Yes, that!

I think this is also the reason so many people got upset that Buffy was able to forgive Spike. Because it read as though ME endorsed forgiving a man who commits a rape because he is drunk, desperate, and stupid.

Yes! That Joss intended to write Buffy as having emotional reasons for wanting Spike to stay around, the big device they used to make Spike seek a soul would have sat better with me, had it been more demonic in nature. Within the context of Seeing Red alone, I thought the attempted rape scene/device was right. I only object to it within the context of Buffy intending to have Spike babysit Dawn right after (although I tend to fanwank that, as her still being in shock and denial about the attack), and in the larger context of season 7.

I don't believe rape is worse than murder or torture. However, the murders & tortures that happen in the Buffyverse are removed from reality. None of us will ever be murdered because we're trying to restore somebody's soul or tortured because we have information about releasing an ancient demon. So seeing those behaviors forgiven isn't likely to lead anyone to think that those things are OK in real life.

I think of rape as torture. And let's face it - all of these things suck. That aside, you're spot on about how those acts seems removed from reality.

How about Faith murdering Professor Lester Worth? That murder wasn't removed from reality.

How about Faith murdering Professor Lester Worth? That murder wasn't removed from reality.

That's true. But then Faith's story played out from that. They didn't try to ignore the consequences of it (regardless of whether or not Worth was brought up again). She was a murderer. She ended up in a coma at Buffy's doing. She got more and more crazy. She was on the run. She tried to take Buffy's body. She tortured Wesley and hunted Angel. She broke. She went to prison.

In comparison, Spike tried to rape Buffy, then she takes her sister to his crypt for protection. The next time Buffy sees Spike, he's a loon. Then he shows up at her house, and she goes off on patrol with him alone. Then, even though he's under the FE's influence, he's living in her house with the whole known slayer line, because Buffy's got an emotional attachment to him.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed pretty much every minute of his story. I just think some things could have been done differently, and my motive for this would have been to preserve Buffy's integrity as hero.

Good answer. :-)

I thought that Buffy's heroism came from her human side, which has all the attending flaws as well. I liked her and Spike's story because their relationship was such a fuck up. That inculded her blind spot to Spike. Even if she kept him alive because she saw contrition on his part, she didn't need to keep him in the same house as the potentials. (It's like the Gary Larson cartton with the dingoes being kept next to the kindergarten: Trouble Brewing).

It's all these flaws that kept me interested in them, and it's why I liked S6 so much. I liked Buffy and Spike but I'm no Spuffy type. Their realtionship was a psychological car wreck which made it good viewing.

I thought the Buffy/Spike relationship was one of the most interesting things on the show. I've seen (hell, I've been in) relationships with the same type of motivation & self-destruction, and the whole thing read very true to me throughout S6. And if Buffy's forgiveness of Spike was shown as a blindspot, the same type of willful masochism that colored her sexual relationship with him, then I'd have loved it. But to have it be the same type of "she's right even when she's wrong cuz she's the slayer" meme just pissed me off. Because it seemed to say,

Hey, yeah, guys mess up because they have hormones and all, and sometimes they try to rape you & it's hard to forgive them, but if you have some sense that they're decent, then put yourself in situations where you're all alone with them and go to sleep in their arms - it'll be just fine.

Now, I know that's not what ME was trying to say, but rape's not something to be taken lightly, and non-supernatural events read differently in the Buffyverse. It's clear that ME understands that from the way they treated Joyce's death, and Faith's murder, and even Dawn's shoplifting. It just seems like they put little thought into how the AR & it's follow-up would read.

edited because I can't spell

The thing that muddied the waters so much was the soul getting. ME had for years shown the Angel and Angelus were different "people", or at least had shown that that was how Buffy thought, so they were then left with this precedent when Spike got souled up.

I know what Cindy means when she talks about Spike with a soul having the same face of Buffy's attempted rapist, but I think they stopped short of losing the place completely.

But here's my problem -- if they're the same person, then she's in love with her abusive ex. If they're different people, then she's in love with a crazy guy she just met.

ME wanted to have it both ways, and it screwed up S7 mightily.

Aye, but to be fair, she didn't exactly fall in love with mad souled up Spike the second she clapped eyes on him.

And getting a soul for her, is like the best chocolate and flowers ever.
However I see what your saying, it was a fine balancing act ME attempted, but at least they attempted it, which is more than you can say for 99% of the shite that's out there.

She's in love?

I never thought that.