I didn't notice Giles not touching until I saw you guys talking about it. This may have a lot more to do with giving up on trying to speculate about Giles' story after Grave than anything else. It's a long story. I thought he had been in Hell (where Angel was) and we were going to find out about in some flashback for like three seasons because I am a moron.

I did not think Joyce was the First. It makes abso-fucking-lutely no sense that she was. I can't read Buffy sending Dawn away as "not choosing" her - now I will look back and just think. "Hmmm. Joyce/The First just said something to freak Dawn out - that's all it was."

These things aren't what makes the bulk of S7 kinda crappy for me - for me - it's the lack of good stand-alones, too many extra people I don't care about, not even caring about some of my core four (Willow) and the speeches.

However, the finale made up for a lot of it. It is pretty much exactly what I wanted. Especially when it comes to Slayer-empowerment. Plus, if you would have told me that they could have "ended" A/B and S/B exactly the way I wanted them - I would have said "Impossible! Stop smoking all that crack!" And yet, they did.

For those of you who didn't spoil at all, did you notice it yourselves, or did you notice people talking about it here first, and then notice it?

The latter. And had it never been pointed out to me, I probably would have found the scoobie realization scene much funnier. It's like the punchline was spoiled because the setup was revealed.

I wondered if everyone was the FE, so for every appearance, it was a countdown to physical contact.

I wondered if everyone was the FE, so for every appearance, it was a countdown to physical contact.

I kept waiting for FE!Buffy to fool someone other than Spike. That could have had some value to it, particularly before they realized they were dealing with the FE.

tina - I agree the payoff wasn't great for the Joyce thing, even if you decide Joyce was Joyce and not the FE as Joyce. It's just the only thing there, well that, and Dawn turning out not to be a potential, but although Buffy wouldn't have wanted Dawn to be a slayer, Buffy had no say in who was a slayer.

I still think though, in the Buffyverse, when someone invokes the power of everyone who loves her and all the strength within, she does a spell powerful enough, that that should have been ghost!Joyce, not FE!Joyce, so I have to reject Jane's answer. It doesn't matter to me that she wrote the damned thing. Canon is all.

edited to try and make some sense.

For those of you who didn't spoil at all, did you notice it yourselves, or did you notice people talking about it here first, and then notice it?

People talked about it here, but the clues were rampant once I started thinking about it.

I don't know about you all, but I am still highly unsatisfied by Giles' behaviour. Even after he was not the First, I didn't like how he behaved (i.e. slashing the Bringer's throat)

I don't know about you all, but I am still highly unsatisfied by Giles' behaviour. Even after he was not the First, I didn't like how he behaved (i.e. slashing the Bringer's throat)

I'm right there with you.

I didn't mind the throat slash. I think ASH was misused, but really, I'm not so sure they were always certain which episodes they'd have him in, and that may have been due to ASH's schedule, so I never had great expectations. I was just glad to see him when I could. I did think the misdirect with the Bringer almost killing him was lame though.

still think though, in the Buffyverse, when someone invokes the power of everyone who loves her and all the strength within, she does a spell powerful enough, that that should have been ghost!Joyce, not FE!Joyce, so I have to reject Jane's answer.

Your first post on this totally persuaded me. I hear ya. Love Jane, too. Know she wrote it. But she be wrong.

Here is the THING: WTF was that battle between Joyce and that morespooky thing all about then? Just to convince Dawn it really really was her mom? Because I think her *dead* mom appearing to her would do that just fine. And - it didn't convince her - she was kinda freaked about it - but it never came back up in a significant way. Ugh. It's pointless - like Allyson said - all the cohesion of baby snot.

Giles was just written off. That's why I wanted him to be the FE, or otherwise evil. I'd rather the problem be in their 'verse than ours.

The other reason the FE!Joyce doesn't make a lick of sense is because, if the First was capable of doing poltergeisty things, the whole "no touchy" thing becomes irrelevant and pointless.