Just because it's the FE, it doesn't mean it's not right. The FE got right at the heart of the humans it was trying to manipulate and it did it by knowing them. It not only knoew Andrew's weakness, it had to know Warren as well, to fool Andrew. So, to fool Dawn it had to know a bit aout BUffy, I think.

But by giving Dawn the knowledge, she was less upset when it actually happened and was more helpful at the end with fighting the FE. I am going to pretend that Jane didn't understand the question, and that it really was Joyce.

I am going to pretend that Jane didn't understand the question, and that it really was Joyce.

A reasonable way to look at it. Because it fits my theory that Buffy "didn't choose" Dawn when she asked Xander to drive Dawn far away from Sunnydale.

It would've worked perfectly well with Joyce as the FE if Dawn had actually suffered some fallout - actually changed her behavior in a way that made a difference because she'd been warned not to trust Buffy. Joss has said that Dawn kinda got shafted in S7, though.

It's a case where reading the script gave away something that might not have been so obvious otherwise.

Ftr, I watched on time delay, and didn't read the scripts. I missed the Giles-not-touching-things completely until I read about it here.

The Giles-not-touching-things will never be as bad for me as the "I didn't get my head cut off because the Bringer had squeaky shoes."

Ftr, I watched on time delay, and didn't read the scripts. I missed the Giles-not-touching-things completely until I read about it here.

Fiona's post has made me curious about something. I knew Giles wouldn't be touching anything before he didn't touch anything - or soon after he started not touching anything.

For those of you who didn't spoil at all, did you notice it yourselves, or did you notice people talking about it here first, and then notice it?

A reasonable way to look at it. Because it fits my theory that Buffy "didn't choose" Dawn when she asked Xander to drive Dawn far away from Sunnydale.

Yep. See when I take away my knowledge of Jane's totally wrong answer (Jane, I'd still give you a kidney, well, maybe not a kidney, but some money or something), that's how it fits in for me, too.

I didn't notice Giles not touching until I saw you guys talking about it. This may have a lot more to do with giving up on trying to speculate about Giles' story after Grave than anything else. It's a long story. I thought he had been in Hell (where Angel was) and we were going to find out about in some flashback for like three seasons because I am a moron.

I did not think Joyce was the First. It makes abso-fucking-lutely no sense that she was. I can't read Buffy sending Dawn away as "not choosing" her - now I will look back and just think. "Hmmm. Joyce/The First just said something to freak Dawn out - that's all it was."

These things aren't what makes the bulk of S7 kinda crappy for me - for me - it's the lack of good stand-alones, too many extra people I don't care about, not even caring about some of my core four (Willow) and the speeches.

However, the finale made up for a lot of it. It is pretty much exactly what I wanted. Especially when it comes to Slayer-empowerment. Plus, if you would have told me that they could have "ended" A/B and S/B exactly the way I wanted them - I would have said "Impossible! Stop smoking all that crack!" And yet, they did.

For those of you who didn't spoil at all, did you notice it yourselves, or did you notice people talking about it here first, and then notice it?

The latter. And had it never been pointed out to me, I probably would have found the scoobie realization scene much funnier. It's like the punchline was spoiled because the setup was revealed.

I wondered if everyone was the FE, so for every appearance, it was a countdown to physical contact.

I wondered if everyone was the FE, so for every appearance, it was a countdown to physical contact.

I kept waiting for FE!Buffy to fool someone other than Spike. That could have had some value to it, particularly before they realized they were dealing with the FE.

tina - I agree the payoff wasn't great for the Joyce thing, even if you decide Joyce was Joyce and not the FE as Joyce. It's just the only thing there, well that, and Dawn turning out not to be a potential, but although Buffy wouldn't have wanted Dawn to be a slayer, Buffy had no say in who was a slayer.

I still think though, in the Buffyverse, when someone invokes the power of everyone who loves her and all the strength within, she does a spell powerful enough, that that should have been ghost!Joyce, not FE!Joyce, so I have to reject Jane's answer. It doesn't matter to me that she wrote the damned thing. Canon is all.

edited to try and make some sense.