I too am all for LESS discussion. Discussion, at least in the last two cases, has been unproductive, unless what you wanted was tsuris. I'm not saying there should be no discussion, but I do think that the 100s of posts of handwringing does no good.

As for the point that warning has led, in the past two cases, to a swift suspension and banning, I see that as all the more reason to stop the handwringing. If a poster can implode that quickly at a warning, he/she was a problem to begin with. Anyone who is NOT likely to be a long term problem, on the other hand, will not go postal when handed a warning, but will instead rethink his/her behavior.

Dude. That came out of left field.

Did it? Cause it seems to be a direct quote and then response to your post. Allyson "Bureaucracy 2: Like Sartre, Only Longer" Apr 18, 2003 1:10:15 pm EDT

My definition of troll is someone who adversely affects a given community because they don't fit the etiquette. They can not fit because they don't want to, or just because that's not who they are.

I don't care. Just like I'd be trollish in a number of places, due to either malice or incompatibility, the same happens here. I have NO problem with that. Just like a complaint is not the end of the world, not everyone is made for everywhere.

I don't feel a need to be too too generous with the benefit of doubt thing. Because I'm not denying anyone access to food, water, or intellectual stimulation. I'm about saying "Look, you seem to be pissing a lot of people off. Think you can change?"

Discussing the first is, effectively, discussing the second.

If the discussion-- assuming the poster has access and reads it-- doesn't change the poster's ways, it's likely enough a warning won't, ultimately, either. But perhaps I'm personally over-identifying. (And I wrote this before seeing Burrell's post at 716, which is pretty similar in point)

In Zoe's case, it seemed likely her pattern of behavior would continue, no matter what, and it was a question whether that in itself was enough to lead to banning. As much as we may have said she would change in response to a warning, I'm not sure anyone really thought that was going to happen-- she hadn't changed her behavior in response to anything.

I'm not sure anyone really thought that was going to happen-- she hadn't changed her behavior in response to anything.

Shawn's right, and in Zoe's case I think we needed to talk endlessly, because we were all (okay, many of us) working ourselves up to the fact that she was probably going to end up banned.

My definition of troll is someone who adversely affects a given community because they don't fit the etiquette. They can not fit because they don't want to, or just because that's not who they are.

ita, all things being equal, that's a substantial enlargement of the standard meaning I know of. (Where "troll" = someone maliciously trolling for negative attention by posting rarely, out of the blue, and in an imflammatory manner.) I mean, we can use that meaning, if I'm in the minority here, but it's confusing to me to use onoe word and mean something else.

I'm not advocating for my use of the word to spread across the internet.

Even before the Zoe thing got heated, I've been anxious about people's effects, not their intentions. I will never know anyone else's intentions, and having them be invisible makes things even fuzzier. But I DO know how they affect me, and I can pretty well judge how they affect us.

That's what I want to mitigate.

Yeah, I get at your meaning, I think, and I agree with you. Just confused about the word usage.

msbelle,

I said, "Saw boards degenerate due to the "kumbayah, i was bullied when i was wee so i need to accept everyone and let's hold hands and sing joy to the world!" contingency."

Fay responded, "As one of the kumbayah crowd,"

And then went on to describe something completely different than holding hands and accepting everyone.

And so I clarifi-fucking-fied by saying, "Fay, there's benefit of the doubt, and then there's closing your eyes, blocking your ears, and coddling the deranged kid who is running around biting the other kids, and telling the bitten to suck it up, because Little Johnny has ADD and his dad drinks.

There's leeway, and then there's the point where maybe lil Johnny needs to be moved to the special school, because this one doesn't have the resources to handle Johnny's issues. "

And then Fay flipped the fuck out.

Allyson, cut it out with the cursing, please. No need to go there.

It's harder for me, anyway, to evaluate your argument when you're using swear words. It just makes me angry.

It just makes me angry.

It just occured to me, Nutty, that I swear my fucking head off instead of saying, "Fay, that post is making me so insane with violence and anger, I need to go away, for a very long time, or I'm going to say horrible things to you which I mean right now, but will feel terrible for saying in a week, because I won't mean them, then.

Nutty, sometimes your posts make me angry. I don't tell you. I'm unsure why. Except, I like cursing, and see nothing wrong with it.