I am anti-thread proliferation, but I think that a Tim’s Works thread is a great idea, for the reasons already mentioned: he’s one of us, his work always generates a great deal of discussion, and he has a new show coming out. But I would like to see this proposal paired with a proposal to clean up the loose threads, so to speak, left over from this season. Basically that means consolidating and cutting out some of them, esp Firefly- and Buffy-related threads.

It's certainly true that the Firefly threads are going to need to be retired -- eventually, after the Brits have their say, and I guess after the DVDs

And call me nuts, but I’d say that the new Tim thread would be the perfect place to discuss/speculate about future Firefly projects.

If we had a Works of Tim thread, would we be disallowed from discussing episodes Tim has written in the Angel thread?

Given that this has never happened before, why would it happen now?

I also don’t see the worry that this will turn into a Tim’s Stalkers thread or a Let's Discuss Tim's Love Life thread. Again, it’s never happened in the past, and we also have a large contingent of writers amongst us who feel strongly about separating the person from the work.

Having a Minear thread for Tim-the-person is just a bit more fannish than I'm comfortable with.

This hasn’t been proposed, has it? In the interest of avoiding confusion, it would be helpful to focus on what has been proposed, not what hasn't.

I'm troubled by how unclear many of the opinions are on this subject. I'm not saying that people can help being unclear, just that there's a big, unavoidable gray area between "Tim posts here and he's a cool guy" and "Tim is a great writer and director, perhaps the best ever to work for ME". I'm entirely comfortable with a thread created based on the latter opinion, and I'm entirely uncomfortable with a thread created based on the former.

Tim's Buffista-ness more than justifies Nillying him and making Tim-related FAQ entries. But there's a strong voice in me that wants thread creation to be sharply and solely focused on making room for lively and sustainable discussion. And even when I'm reading pro-arguments from those who seem to share that opinion, there's a lot of "plus, Tim posts here" undercurrent.

If Tim had never posted here once, wouldn't he still be a great writer and director? Would everyone who currently supports a Minearverse thread still support it if that were the case? If not, how much is this decision being affected by "Tim's our friend"? If so, why aren't we delving more into the merits of threads discussing the work of, say, Jane Espenson? What if we had five or six ME writers posting here instead of one (not counting Joss)? Would that make decisions about ME alum threads easier regarding those writers, and more importantly, should it?

I'm probably getting too meta with all this, and I may have stepped on a few toes in the process. Honestly, I'm posting this simply because I have no idea which way I would vote on the matter, and I'm hoping that clarifying some of these issues will help me to make a decision.

This hasn’t been proposed, has it? In the interest of avoiding confusion, it would be helpful to focus on what has been proposed, not what hasn't.

One can be worried about the reasons a vote goes the way it does, even if one supports the ultimate outcome of a vote.

Robert, for me it's a twin thing, and I'm clear on it.

1. His work merits it
2. It's an honour, inasmuch as Buffistas.org can honour people.

I *do* think it's different. I make no bones about it -- if I get a TV show, I want a thread. You have been warned.

I'm anti-general alum thread. Because the spoiler issue will probably make me insane since the writers are going to be so spread out. It will turn into a general TV thread. [And yes, I would have once advocated a general TV thread but now that there's a movie thread that I don't post in...not so much.]

Also, I saw a question upthread about what Tim has done. I put his filmography back up here: [link]

I make no bones about it -- if I get a TV show, I want a thread.

Me too!

One can be worried about the reasons a vote goes the way it does, even if one supports the ultimate outcome of a vote.

I'm not seeing how this point is connected to my point, that it would be helpful to focus on the thread suggested--one devoted to Tim's works--rather than the one that hasn't been suggested--one devoted to him as a person. Can you explain the connection to me?

If Tim had never posted here once, wouldn't he still be a great writer and director?

I'd say yes.

Would everyone who currently supports a Minearverse thread still support it if that were the case?

Maybe, but maybe not. I'm okay with the idea that the thread honors one of our own. Also, I have no doubt that we will continue to discuss the work of other ME writers.

I'm not seeing how this point is connected to my point, that it would be helpful to focus on the thread suggested--one devoted to Tim's works--rather than the one that hasn't been suggested--one devoted to him as a person. Can you explain the connection to me?

Someone else earlier pointed out that very little discussion is restricted around here, beyond reasons of NAFDA and the occasional nattering in Site threads. If most of us vote for the thread that has been suggested, but do it because what we want is the thread that hasn't been suggested, isn't the thread pretty much going to become the unsuggested one?

I'm okay with the idea that the thread honors one of our own.

See, I'm okay with the idea of honoring one of our own. I'm just not okay with the idea of honoring one of our own with a thread. I don't want threads to be honors, I want them to be places for discussion. Maybe threads can be both of those things comfortably, and I'm worrying for nothing. But that's why I'm trying to get that aspect more fleshed out amongst us.

I'm not seeing how this point is connected to my point, that it would be helpful to focus on the thread suggested--one devoted to Tim's works--rather than the one that hasn't been suggested--one devoted to him as a person. Can you explain the connection to me?

I think it is worthwhile to discuss what the thread is likely to be, whatever its title. Personally, I doubt we'll be discussing the contents of Tim's fridge. But it's a fair concern, I think.

It does seem to me that the impetus for this thread is stemming more from Tim as a person than from the feeling we'll want and need a place to discuss certain things. In fact, IIRC, there were some comments made earlier that we shouldn't even have to vote on this, or that the idea of voting on it would be some sort of an insult to Tim. This bothers me.

Someone else earlier pointed out that very little discussion is restricted around here, beyond reasons of NAFDA and the occasional nattering in Site threads.

No. What I was pointing out was that I thought the question on whether discussion of Tim-written Angel episodes would be forbidden in the Angel thread was an unfair question. That sort of question gets trotted out every time someone proposes a thread (i.e. if we have music thread, will music be forbidden from Natter). My point was, I believe that sort of questioning is a general thread-squelching tool, and doesn't address a real life problem here in Buffistaville. That's far, far away from someone worrying that the thread is going to turn into a discussion of Minear as a person.

If most of us vote for the thread that has been suggested, but do it because what we want is the thread that hasn't been suggested, isn't the thread pretty much going to become the unsuggested one?

But who wants that? Maybe in a Bizarro Buffistaverse, people would rather have a "what is Tim wearing/who is Tim doing thread" - but here and now, are you seriously worried that Buffistas would prefer that to a topic-based discussion thread? I mean honestly, are you concerned that's what Buffistas are going to be wishing for a dish-the-dirt thread while they're clicking on the "yes" ballot checkbox for a discuss-the-works-of-Tim-Minear thread?

I think this is borrowing trouble, and I think it's the sort of thinking that makes all of our bureaucratic discussions devolve into head-thunking sessions.

Signed,

QWERTY

I'm okay with the idea of honoring one of our own. I'm just not okay with the idea of honoring one of our own with a thread.

Different strokes, I guess, because I feel exactly the opposite -- it's precisely because I consider Tim to be a Buffista, not an honorary Buffista, or a VIP who drops by, or somesuch, that I want him to have a thread. Same as I'd want a Scrappy thread, or a Victor thread, if they hit the screenwriting jackpot.