No, it wasn't a discussion in some areas and what I'm saying is even having this discussion with folks who are not in minority groups saying, "Well, I don't know..." is damaging to those that are. Again, it's the majority deciding for the minority.

Minorities: I think it would be useful to have this thread to talk about issues.
Non-minorities: I feel censored. I feel like I'd be attacked. Prove that we need it.

I don't see anyone saying those conversations shouldn't happen, though. We're discussing whether or not we need a separate thread for it, which is entirely in line with how we always create (or don't create) new threads. I think everyone who is participating in this discussion wants to figure out a good and useful way for our community to hold these necessary conversations.

One of things that made the weekend's discussion so difficult was that there wasn't a good place to move the discussion. People suggested Bureaucracy. That felt like a big escalation, but maybe it shouldn't have.

Glamcookie's idea merits conversation and consideration. This weekend demonstrated some level of need. I am both interested and concerned.

It would have been useful to have a place where the discussion fit, like Glam's proposed thread. It also could have fit in Bureaucracy, had we only all agreed/remembered ahead of time that moving hard convos there isn't always a step toward some disciplinary action.

I have a dim memory of someone once floating the idea of a thread for hard discussions, i.e. a "Fight Club" thread. I think we eventually we reached a consensus that it would be a bad idea. Either that, or it eventually evolved into Lightbulbs. Does anyone else remember this? Am I misremembering it?

Similarly, some of us wanted a politics thread (I was one; I think Wolfram was another, and maybe Sean K., too). Thank goodness cooler heads prevailed and the community decided against it. In retrospect think it would have been a disaster. One of the reasons it failed is that we were afraid people would import bad feelings from it back to our other threads. I think that's a possibility with this proposal as well.

I wonder if, instead of a dedicated thread, when hard discussions like these break out, we might establish a custom of bringing them to Bureaucracy (and update the FAQ to that end), with the understanding that we're taking it there to talk it through.

We should be able to have conversations about the -isms when we feel like someone has inadvertently stepped into one or more, here. I don't know about having a dedicated thread for it. I feel like it might be a big change in culture (not the discussions themselves as they arise organically, but the establishment of a thread to that end).

I'm not saying Glamcookie's proposal won't work. I have read this whole conversation, but I am having trouble imagining the new thread working without turning into a "Fight Club" or "Politics Light" thread. Maybe that will become clearer to me as discussion continues.

Glamcookie, I think you're terrific, and I very much appreciate that you're working toward a solution. I am still trying to puzzle out how this works in practice.

sj, I am glad you spoke up here. I felt terrible that you needed to absent yourself from the board.

Minorities: I think it would be useful to have this thread to talk about issues.

Non-minorities: I feel censored. I feel like I'd be attacked. Prove that we need it.

I will say I have seen this sort of thing go poorly, despite intent, elsewhere. An example from my own experience:

Me: " ... [something something] and that's crazy."

Other person: "Using 'crazy' is ableist language against neurodivergent people and you shouldn't."

Me: "I AM officially diagnosed as neurodivergent and crazy, and I feel using 'crazy' isn't a slur against my marginalized group."

:: both of us seethe and feel we're not being listened to ::

Which of us gets to say the language can be used? There's no good option.

I know that a key part of Buffista culture is discussing EVERYTHING, and that someone doesn't have to subscribe to every thread. But if someone said to me, "The thing you just said is [ism]", even tho' I would apologize, I would also worry that my word choice and intent was being scrutinized and discussed over in a thread I don't read, which will lead straight to my anxiety and avoidance issues.

Do I feel there should be a thread to discuss things? Yes. Do I worry that despite good intentions, this will end up driving off people who are going to feel like if they say the wrong thing it will be a constant point of discussion and trigger their own issues? Also yes.

Again, this is NOT me saying valuing the comfort of non-minorities over minorities is what we should do. This is me saying that I've seen this get ugly and lead to the withering of other communities DESPITE everyone's good intentions.

sj, I am glad you spoke up here. I felt terrible that you needed to absent yourself from the board.

I feel obligated to this discussion since I inadvertently started all of this, but I still not comfortable being on the board right now. And honestly with many of the posts I'm seeing in this thread, I'm not sure I will ever be comfortable here again. This website has been the first one I have gone to every day for nearly 20 year, and even typing the previous sentence makes me unbelievably sad.

I want people to feel safe, I want people to realize that words have meanings and context they may not know about. I also know that communities have struggled with how to do this for a long time, and there are no good or easy answers.

---

sj, know that you are seen and loved.

Oh no, sj. I’m sorry. Thank you for taking part.

Glam, I want to address you directly because I truly value our friendship and I care a great deal about you and your family.

Even having to vote on a thread for your own and other minority groups rights in a community you are a part of feels like a slap, I have to say. I know this is the Buffista way but it is very reminiscent of Supreme Court ruling over your marriage, or businesses getting to decide whether they'll be wheelchair accessible or not. The majority telling the minority to "prove it." It feels fucking awful. If you're not a part of a minority group, please keep that in mind when you comment here. I hope it's worth getting the last word or asserting your dominance to make already oppressed people feel unwelcome and question whether your friends are truly your friends.

I want you to know that I hear the urgency in your voice, and the ethical necessity you feel for addressing these issues. That it's not theoretical for you, but lived experience as your family has been under attack for the last several years.

You are correct that I have many privileges and my POV is not a voice coming from within an oppressed minority. I am conscious of that. I'm not trying to center my voice in the discussion. I raised one point, and I won't belabor it.

I am a work in progress, but I do hope that you would credit that I believe in the work and have consciously worked to address my own biases.

Kate's point is where I am at: "I don't see anyone saying those conversations shouldn't happen, though. We're discussing whether or not we need a separate thread for it, which is entirely in line with how we always create (or don't create) new threads. I think everyone who is participating in this discussion wants to figure out a good and useful way for our community to hold these necessary conversations."

sj, I'm so sorry, and if I contributed to making you uncomfortable, I never meant to. As Atropa said, you are seen and loved here.

I'm not sure I will ever be comfortable here again.

This makes me unbelievably sad too, sj. I wish we could all keep in mind that impact trumps intent, apologize that we hurt a friend, learn from our dip in the guac, and move on to the next discussion.

I am not down for anything that marginalizes already-marginalized people. I also know our tendency to dissect every point to the nth degree. I don't have a solution for this at the moment. Is a thread the right way to go about it? Maybe a thread where these discussions go will be a pile-on. Is memorializing a process to bring legitimate issues to a space indicated (like Bureaucracy) for resolving those issues better? Again, I'm not sure.

I am dismayed at the responses to being told their language/comparisons were hurtful. Letting things slide to keep the peace is not the answer, either. People wanting to leave because they can't deal with being told that something is hurtful to another community member may be a natural consequence of standing up for those that have been historically pushed to the sidelines.