I want people to feel safe, I want people to realize that words have meanings and context they may not know about. I also know that communities have struggled with how to do this for a long time, and there are no good or easy answers.

---

sj, know that you are seen and loved.

Oh no, sj. I’m sorry. Thank you for taking part.

Glam, I want to address you directly because I truly value our friendship and I care a great deal about you and your family.

Even having to vote on a thread for your own and other minority groups rights in a community you are a part of feels like a slap, I have to say. I know this is the Buffista way but it is very reminiscent of Supreme Court ruling over your marriage, or businesses getting to decide whether they'll be wheelchair accessible or not. The majority telling the minority to "prove it." It feels fucking awful. If you're not a part of a minority group, please keep that in mind when you comment here. I hope it's worth getting the last word or asserting your dominance to make already oppressed people feel unwelcome and question whether your friends are truly your friends.

I want you to know that I hear the urgency in your voice, and the ethical necessity you feel for addressing these issues. That it's not theoretical for you, but lived experience as your family has been under attack for the last several years.

You are correct that I have many privileges and my POV is not a voice coming from within an oppressed minority. I am conscious of that. I'm not trying to center my voice in the discussion. I raised one point, and I won't belabor it.

I am a work in progress, but I do hope that you would credit that I believe in the work and have consciously worked to address my own biases.

Kate's point is where I am at: "I don't see anyone saying those conversations shouldn't happen, though. We're discussing whether or not we need a separate thread for it, which is entirely in line with how we always create (or don't create) new threads. I think everyone who is participating in this discussion wants to figure out a good and useful way for our community to hold these necessary conversations."

sj, I'm so sorry, and if I contributed to making you uncomfortable, I never meant to. As Atropa said, you are seen and loved here.

I'm not sure I will ever be comfortable here again.

This makes me unbelievably sad too, sj. I wish we could all keep in mind that impact trumps intent, apologize that we hurt a friend, learn from our dip in the guac, and move on to the next discussion.

I am not down for anything that marginalizes already-marginalized people. I also know our tendency to dissect every point to the nth degree. I don't have a solution for this at the moment. Is a thread the right way to go about it? Maybe a thread where these discussions go will be a pile-on. Is memorializing a process to bring legitimate issues to a space indicated (like Bureaucracy) for resolving those issues better? Again, I'm not sure.

I am dismayed at the responses to being told their language/comparisons were hurtful. Letting things slide to keep the peace is not the answer, either. People wanting to leave because they can't deal with being told that something is hurtful to another community member may be a natural consequence of standing up for those that have been historically pushed to the sidelines.

Do I worry that despite good intentions, this will end up driving off people who are going to feel like if they say the wrong thing it will be a constant point of discussion and trigger their own issues?

It absolutely will, no matter how good the intentions. I have never, in all my years online, seen a space like the proposed one go well. They inevitably turn into an Orwellian struggle session. I've been online a long time. I know we all hope we can like and trust each other, but that's not going to be enough.

Bluntly? Look, I know I'm busy as hell and hardly here these days, so do what you need to do, but after my experiences in previous communities that have tried to do that and my resulting nervous breakdown, we go here? Then we've gone where I cannot follow.

And honestly with many of the posts I'm seeing in this thread, I'm not sure I will ever be comfortable here again.

I'm so sorry you are in that place, and I'm angry we weren't able to resolve the inciting incident to your satisfaction when it happened. Is that something you can further discuss, sj?

Look, everyone, I'm going to bring something up in Bureau that's directly related to the ableism incident from the weekend. I think it's too off-topic in this thread, but it's related, so I hope people read and reply.

Is that something you can further discuss, sj?

I'm not sure if my answer to that belongs here or not, but I think that on this website of all places I should be able to says that something someone said has, probably unintentionally, hurt me, and get a proper apology. While I was not the one that initially pointed out that Laura's post was also problematic, I totally agreed with what Debet posted at the time, and there was no apology given for that either. I understand that people did not want the discussion to continue in GB&GR, but, as I have said, I and others didn't know where to take it. I was offended by the idea that I should just drop it. So, if people do not want the thread that GC proposed, I feel there needs to be a clear policy in place for what I and others are supposed to do in the future if something like this happens again, asI'm sure it will because we all step in the guacamole at times, if I'm going to continue to feel comfortable posting here. Because I am past the point in my life where I feel like I'm going to just smile and ignore something that I find hurtful, especially around people who I consider to be friends. I'm not even sure if any of that was coherent. Sorry.

I’m with you, sj. At this point I’d like to retract my proposal and exit this discussion.

With a group this large and diverse (we are not homogenous, not really, even though most of us seem to be pretty liberal), there's no way we're going to avoid ever hurting or getting hurt. I don't think anyone should NOT speak up, but we can't expect people not to get hurt or not to be offended or not to hurt. Impact may trump intent, but intent does matter. Talking it out, in the spirit of knowing that none of us intends to hurt one another, is the only way to deal with it, short of people just leaving, which no one wants.

But I don't see how having a special thread meant to educate people in isn't going to turn into a penalty box. I think the idea is that people would want to go there to learn about how they affected someone in a spirit of embracing growth, but I just don't think that's how most people would respond to being directed to the hurt-feelings-discussion room. Especially not in the heat of a painful emotional moment.

We're a found family, for some of us an intentionally created family. Nobody can hurt you like family can. Sometimes you talk it out and hug it out in an intentional embrace of the pain and the knowledge that our relationship is worth the pain. And sometimes you keep quiet and live with resentment forever, which... yeah, I don't recommend it. I wish I knew how to keep anyone from ever getting hurt again, but my origin family is pretty damn dysfunctional, so all I've really got is awareness of how it goes wrong. I'd really rather this family didn't.

Long post, considering I meant to not say anything.

edit: I took so long to post it, it may not even matter anymore.