This is such a perfect illustration of why dealing with harassment is so hard. When several people say, "Nah, I didn't care about that [comment, joke, inappropriate whatever]!" it makes it a lot harder for the people to who do care about it to speak up. I say this as a person who is often on the "wrong" side, and needs to think hard about it.

I echo what Trudy said earlier about everyone cutting themselves some slack. Manipulators are good at this stuff y'all. Dividing groups is so commonplace. I do believe we could not have had this conversation many years ago when some of these things occurred, the board has mellowed A LOT and we have had the benefit of witnessing so many other social network ups and downs.

Looking back on the thread Karl linked, I was sure that I'd have just seen the "joke" as an unfunny but also non-serious example of such, and was surprised that I actually posted a serious statement about objectification and why it's not an equal opportunity offense shortly thereafter. Did not recall the incident or my actual reaction to it at all.

I support a procedure change or immediate suspension.

I've been thinking about what Karl posted in that old Supernatural thread, trying to remember how I felt about the discussion. It's hard to look at something from that long ago and not apply a current emotional reaction to it. I do remember thinking that Karl was right in what he said, but a number of folks shrugged it off, so I went along with the majority as "eh, one of us and boys will be boys". (I can be easily swayed and Sunil's apology seemed sincere.)

Now, I can look back, and with a much greater awareness of concepts like internalized misogyny, I can better understand the reactions that we exhibited. It's prevalent in society, in our lives, it takes some really careful analysis. I have to very belatedly thank Karl and Matt for calling out Sunil's behavior, because it shows me how insidious internalized misogyny is. It is something that I now understand was the only way I coped with 14 years in the Navy and the underlying reason I eventually left, even though I didn't have the term for it at that time.

I'm sad that we've all had to learn the hard way, but grateful for the lesson so I can be more on guard.

I didn't participate in the SPN thread, but I did go back and read it. It really is indicative of...something that Karl and Matt and DX had those reactions, and the women had their reactions. And I'm not trying to judge anyone for what they said or felt, just looking back at it with the benefit of hindsight.

I said this in an email somewhere over the weekend, but I owe an apology to DX for not taking it seriously enough when he expressed his concerns about P-C.

I wish I'd seen that thread then -- I wasn't watching SPN at that point. I had concerns about him, but it seemed like everybody else was OK with him, so I figured I must be the one who was wrong.

But actually, I probably wouldn't have said anything if I had been following that thread, because I avoid confrontation like that.

There were a lot of comments that pinged or set off red flags for people. But maybe none so egregious in itself to warrant more than in-thread censure (as Karl did).

Certainly you start to see more of a pattern over time and that's where the toxic nature is more visible.

That's a separate consideration from the event Jessica describes which is itself ban-worthy.

I'm glad that that we've decided to vote on it. I just think it's better for the community to make that decision, and we worked hard to build those structures in place. I just prefer that it is a deliberate act and I feel like people coming forward here and discussing it is healthier.

If, as Liese notes, there was a more immediate need for the stompies to intervene (if Sunil were still posting here) then the stompies could act as they are empowered to do.

But I prefer working through it as a community and then making a collective decision.

Sunil's apology seemed sincere

Yeah, they all do. He's good at apologies.

Nobody has to beat themselves up for being blind here - it takes a certain amount of charm to be a successful creep, and we wouldn't be a loving family of internet weirdos if we didn't instinctively sympathize with self-deprecating social awkwardness.