In the related scenario, I'm amazed that the parents don't indulge any routine and that they trust the kids so much as to not even move from their seats at bed time.

Perhaps, bonny, that IS the routine. Grace tells us when she is tired and she'd go to bed without routines, but I have to plug her into machines before I can feel comfortable with her sleeping.

We do sleep routines at our house. Brush teeth. Mark off calendar. Be told you are loved. Go to sleep. Noah will try to push it and get up once or twice about once every week or two. But that's it.

When I was a kid, I can remember being SUPER EXCITED that I get to go to sleep. I still feel that way.

play the ball wherever the monkey drops it

I had not heard about it until just now, but I love it. Thank you for bringing it to my attention!

That philosophy was exactly my experience in the peace march, so I had to ask, where do my control issues really come out?

It sort of, but not really, surprised me to realize that it's only when I'm responsible for someone else. My dog. A child. A client. When it's just me, my response is totally different.

When it is just me, I really do play wherever the monkey drops the ball.

eta: Just the other day, I cracked myself up when I accidentally broke one of my favorite plates. In the old days, I'd have trembled and had a totally _scene_ in my head. In this case, I immediately began thinking up art projects for the two nearly perfect halves.

It reminds me of David Wilcox's Leave It Like It Is .

I've truly striven maintain that attitude about the stuff of life.

When I was a kid, I can remember being SUPER EXCITED that I get to go to sleep. I still feel that way.

I sure feel that way NOW.

my youngest sister always went to bed early - and still does. And she gets up early.

the middle sister is a bit more flexible- but tends toward the early to bed , early to rise.

As a kid, sleep seemed like a waste of time. As I grew older, I liked being awake when the rest of the house was sleeping. and I liked to sleep later.

I've learned to go to sleep earlier - but not before 11 is best - or I will wake up.

So I have a completely untested theory -- that there should be a bedtime and routine.. but going to bed does not have to mean instant sleep. It might mean books or music for some time before falling asleep. a quieting. I would have fought bedtime less if it meant books. but I have no kids so i am all theory

Mercy. I'd have given anything for peaceful sleep until my early 40's. No kidding.

Now, with the super squishy bed and blackout curtain. I'm in heaven.

And yet, I'm still up at 1am.

No biscuit, me.

Maybe I DO need a routine.

My mom did that with me, beth. And I did it with my kids. "It's naptime. You're going to stay in this room for X amount of time, and I don't care what you do." Most kids will be so intrigued that they can play quietly, they fall asleep anyway.

Some kids are desperately afraid that they will miss something if they go to sleep. It's like the party will start the instant their eyes close.

Some kids do not recognize when they're getting tired and instead get cranky and fighty.

Some kids go to sleep easily but wake up several times in the night and then can't get back to sleep.

My goddaughter puts herself to sleep. She will announce "good night" loudly and go into her room and pull the covers over her head. She gets very cranky if we insist on things like brushing teeth or changing into pajamas.

My parents stopped putting me to bed when I was three or so. I mostly stuck to my bed, but they handed me the book and said "you know it by heart, learn to read the others, we're out" and we created our routines. We even instituted goodnight kisses at some point, and my parents were all "whose are these, why are they lippy?"

Blessedly I don't have kids to teach me reality, but our norm was not like what I read about. In the US, anyway.

goddamn Time Warner DVR in the middle of watching Survivor crapped out and re-booted automatically.