Yeah, I peripherally know some people who do peacemaking work on the border, basically getting in the way of violence, offering water & basic first aid, standing around when the border patrol agents did their stuff to make sure there weren't abuses, that sort of thing. Talking to them was shocking in what they see on a regular basis. And up here I've still got people who think that illegal immigration is a capital offense.

I had a near-discussion of the Arizona law yesterday with a friend who stated flat out that he hated illegals. He gave the usual "follow the rules if you want to be here" thing and such. I didn't want to get into it, because A) I love the man, B) he owns the house I live in, and C) I didn't have facts to back up my feelings and didn't want to start a nasty debate on a hot button issue. One thing he said is that half the crime in Utah and Arizona is committed by illegals. I'm not sure where to look to find stats to either refute or confirm that. What is a reliable source of crime stats vis a vis citizenship status?

Well, if you are counting their very being there as part of the crime statistic that's probably true.

Also, Connie, on his definition of crime, because just standing on US soil and breathing while illegal is technically criminal.

Also, while keeping in mind Spike's practical screed ("They lost! You won! Quit yer liberal guilt puling!), I find it hilarious and irritating about all the "This is our land! Stay home!" yelling coming from anyone of European ancestry. Especially when dealing with a people with Spanish and Indian blood since, yo, Spanish-American War? Cali settlement for centuries before "we" won it? @@

EDIT: Xpost with Trudy!

Well, here's an article from, of all places, the American Conservative, refuting the view that hispanics in general have a higher crime rate: [link] I'm re-skimming it to see if they have the exact statistic on crime by illegal immigrants. What it does note is that the data, such as it is, is probably incorrect:

The major difficulty with the study’s evidence is that while prisons have an easy time gathering ethnicity data, determining the immigration status of convicts is far more difficult, and is generally based on self-reporting. Not surprisingly, most convicted felons are not eager to reveal their lack of citizenship and then face deportation once their sentences are completed, so the numbers must be taken with a grain of salt. In fact, a November 2009 paper by Steven A. Camarota and Jessica M. Vaughan for the Center for Immigration Studies raised serious doubts about the accuracy of these federal immigrant-imprisonment statistics, both based on the doubtful methodology employed and the huge, anomalous swings that occur on an ongoing basis.7 For example, the official data seems to show a 28 percent decline in the number of incarcerated immigrants between 1990 and 2000, even as the total number of immigrants grew 59 percent, then a sudden 146 percent rise in incarcerated immigrants from 2000 to 2007, a period when immigrant numbers grew only 22 percent.

If you want a quick and dirty metric for the effect of illegal immigration on crime, note that crime rates in Los Angeles are at 1960s levels, regardless of the rate of illegal immigration. Crime is down precipitously nationwide as well.

NYC has lots of illegal Irish. Nobody seems to be freaking out about them.

It must be because they're overstaying visas instead of sneaking in. Right?

The problem in Utah is exacerbated by the frequency of local news to feature people with Hispanic last names as the perps in violent crimes, and I've never been able to find out if it's a bias in reporting or a true reflection of what's happening out there. In Utah, the assumption is that the "good" white folks "don't do that sort of thing."

My mom's been having a pretty rough time caring for her mom lately. I'm trying to think of something nice to do for her, aside from maybe conspiring with my sister to make a surprise visit. (And bringing my Nubar collection with me, if I can make it up to Michigan that weekend.)

The problem in Utah is exacerbated by the frequency of local news to feature people with Hispanic last names as the perps in violent crimes, and I've never been able to find out if it's a bias in reporting or a true reflection of what's happening out there. In Utah, the assumption is that the "good" white folks "don't do that sort of thing."

I think that's sort of always the question.

Along with "are you enforcing laws more stringently with yer brown folks" (Is the "Oh but they're such nice kids! They just made a mistake!" available to all high school students? Hmm?) the two go a long way towards how crime is percieved.

shrift, I think a weekend visit would be a great idea. She might need time to just decompress and having you two there to care for her mother, or a to provide a good excuse to go on an outing, would be thoughtful.