Additionally, I would like to add that the experience of childbirth is inconceivable to me. Quite literally...I will never be able to experience and lack the necessary equipment to accurately empathize on a physical level.

So I am forced to believe women who have experienced childbirth and say it is "beautiful". Now, to me...being a man who will never have to go through it...it does seem like "Really?! 'cause, honey...you didn't seem like you were having a 'beautiful' time when you were, you know, screaming and all that." Nevertheless, when Aims said it was beautiful and she wanted to do it again...well, who am I to say her nay? It was beautiful to her.

ETA: ...and, as Aims is beautiful to me, and Em is a freaking unbelievably beautiful child (to me)...I cannot and will not argue with the end results.

I disagree, Jessica. Giving birth is an experience that is shared by a family; more than two people. And there are legal aspects to that as well: age of consent, who is to decide on what care should the mother and the baby will get if the mother is still under the influence of medical drugs. By your example, 9/11 happened just to the people who were killed/injured/had their loved ones killed or injured in that event. I'm trying to point that like childbirth, terror attacks and you know what? Even theories of Clueless People affect more than the people that are "happened" to them. That's why the experience, the "thing in itself" is so elusive.

Your concerns, BTW, aren't nothing to research. There's the very famous story of Renato Rosaldo. He lost his wife, Michelle Rosaldo, during his fieldwork on headhunters who turn to it after a grave lost. He said that he could only understand what drove them into that after he lost his wife. In anthropology, researches usually give back their research before publication to their informants to hear what they have to say about it.

But a competent neurologist would not try to argue that the NDE didn't happen, or that the rapture felt by most people who have NDEs is false. There's no contradiction between saying "I saw a bright light and my grandmother and felt a sense of peace" and agreeing that it was caused by chemistry.

And a competent scientist would have to agree that because an event COULD be caused by chemistry doesn't mean it WAS caused by chemistry.

(And surely any competent spectral dead grandmother could certainly make use of the available biological processes to tell you everything is going to be ok.)

(And surely any competent spectral dead grandmother could certainly make use of the available biological processes to tell you everything is going to be ok.)

Or to ask if you were wearing clean underwear.

belief that birth is beautiful or than an NDE was a legitimate mystical experience does not impact anyone else's ability to do anything.

Actually, that's not quite true - the natural birth movement, at its most extreme, encourages women to engage in some extremely risky behaviors. (Why trust some doctor when you can just have your baby at home in the bathtub? It's NATURAL!)

(I know it's not exactly what we're talking about, but seriously, DO NOT have a water birth at home unless you are a dolphin. Childbirth is a romantic and beautiful experience that also happens to involve several bodily excretions you do not want your newborn inhaling.)

Actually, that's not quite true - the natural birth movement, at its most extreme, encourages women to engage in some extremely risky behaviors. (Why trust some doctor when you can just have your baby at home in the bathtub? It's NATURAL!)

I get that, but that's not what I'm talking about either. Giving birth in a bathtub, while stupid, does not impact the ability of several people you don't know to play racquetball or worship as they will. It impacts you, it certainly impacts the baby...

Giving birth is an experience that is shared by a family; more than two people.

But the aspect of giving birth that is being discussed is the physical act of a baby exiting its mother's vagina. There are two people who truly experience that. Everyone else just watches.

Giving birth is an experience that is shared by a family;

Having a baby, yes. Giving birth? No.

Due to circumstances beyond my control, DH remembers more of Dylan being born than I do (fuck you, ketamine). Doesn't mean he experienced childbirth - he experienced watching childbirth.

I need to go out for an hour or so, but just that:

If what you meant by "suspicious" was that you have never gone through childbirth but it seems painful and not beautiful to you, but you're willing to talk to women who've given birth and then believe their accounts, then I did misunderstand you, because that's not what "suspicious" means to me, particularly in that context, and I apologize. I should have asked for clarification.

Yeah, pretty much. And I apologize for lack of wording to clarify that suspicious, to me, is also interesting and intriguing. And in anthropology and sociology, it's not "willing to talk with": that's the most basic part of the damn research, and if you're not doing it, it's a bad one.

Edit:

Having a baby, yes. Giving birth? No.

True; my bad wording.

Everyone else just watches.

Well, we also cringe, say dumb things ("Uh...breathe. Right? Breathe?"), think we're helpful, and acknowledge that, really, we're not helpful at all.