I'm sorry. You were going to ask me to choose, right? Did you want to finish?

Zoe ,'War Stories'


Spike's Bitches 45: That sure as hell wasn't in the brochure.  

[NAFDA] Spike-centric discussion. Lusty, lewd (only occasionally crude), risqué (and frisqué), bawdy (Oh, lawdy!), flirty ('cuz we're purty), raunchy talk inside. Caveat lector.


Shir - Aug 24, 2010 6:56:08 am PDT #29846 of 30000
"And that's why God Almighty gave us fire insurance and the public defender".

I disagree, Jessica. Giving birth is an experience that is shared by a family; more than two people. And there are legal aspects to that as well: age of consent, who is to decide on what care should the mother and the baby will get if the mother is still under the influence of medical drugs. By your example, 9/11 happened just to the people who were killed/injured/had their loved ones killed or injured in that event. I'm trying to point that like childbirth, terror attacks and you know what? Even theories of Clueless People affect more than the people that are "happened" to them. That's why the experience, the "thing in itself" is so elusive.

Your concerns, BTW, aren't nothing to research. There's the very famous story of Renato Rosaldo. He lost his wife, Michelle Rosaldo, during his fieldwork on headhunters who turn to it after a grave lost. He said that he could only understand what drove them into that after he lost his wife. In anthropology, researches usually give back their research before publication to their informants to hear what they have to say about it.


Trudy Booth - Aug 24, 2010 6:57:20 am PDT #29847 of 30000
Greece's financial crisis threatens to take down all of Western civilization - a civilization they themselves founded. A rather tragic irony - which is something they also invented. - Jon Stewart

But a competent neurologist would not try to argue that the NDE didn't happen, or that the rapture felt by most people who have NDEs is false. There's no contradiction between saying "I saw a bright light and my grandmother and felt a sense of peace" and agreeing that it was caused by chemistry.

And a competent scientist would have to agree that because an event COULD be caused by chemistry doesn't mean it WAS caused by chemistry.

(And surely any competent spectral dead grandmother could certainly make use of the available biological processes to tell you everything is going to be ok.)


Miracleman - Aug 24, 2010 6:58:49 am PDT #29848 of 30000
No, I don't think I will - me, quoting Captain Steve Rogers, to all of 2020

(And surely any competent spectral dead grandmother could certainly make use of the available biological processes to tell you everything is going to be ok.)

Or to ask if you were wearing clean underwear.


Jessica - Aug 24, 2010 7:00:04 am PDT #29849 of 30000
If I want to become a cloud of bats, does each bat need a separate vaccination?

belief that birth is beautiful or than an NDE was a legitimate mystical experience does not impact anyone else's ability to do anything.

Actually, that's not quite true - the natural birth movement, at its most extreme, encourages women to engage in some extremely risky behaviors. (Why trust some doctor when you can just have your baby at home in the bathtub? It's NATURAL!)

(I know it's not exactly what we're talking about, but seriously, DO NOT have a water birth at home unless you are a dolphin. Childbirth is a romantic and beautiful experience that also happens to involve several bodily excretions you do not want your newborn inhaling.)


Miracleman - Aug 24, 2010 7:02:58 am PDT #29850 of 30000
No, I don't think I will - me, quoting Captain Steve Rogers, to all of 2020

Actually, that's not quite true - the natural birth movement, at its most extreme, encourages women to engage in some extremely risky behaviors. (Why trust some doctor when you can just have your baby at home in the bathtub? It's NATURAL!)

I get that, but that's not what I'm talking about either. Giving birth in a bathtub, while stupid, does not impact the ability of several people you don't know to play racquetball or worship as they will. It impacts you, it certainly impacts the baby...


Polter-Cow - Aug 24, 2010 7:03:19 am PDT #29851 of 30000
What else besides ramen can you scoop? YOU CAN SCOOP THIS WORLD FROM DARKNESS!

Giving birth is an experience that is shared by a family; more than two people.

But the aspect of giving birth that is being discussed is the physical act of a baby exiting its mother's vagina. There are two people who truly experience that. Everyone else just watches.


Jessica - Aug 24, 2010 7:03:53 am PDT #29852 of 30000
If I want to become a cloud of bats, does each bat need a separate vaccination?

Giving birth is an experience that is shared by a family;

Having a baby, yes. Giving birth? No.

Due to circumstances beyond my control, DH remembers more of Dylan being born than I do (fuck you, ketamine). Doesn't mean he experienced childbirth - he experienced watching childbirth.


Shir - Aug 24, 2010 7:04:31 am PDT #29853 of 30000
"And that's why God Almighty gave us fire insurance and the public defender".

I need to go out for an hour or so, but just that:

If what you meant by "suspicious" was that you have never gone through childbirth but it seems painful and not beautiful to you, but you're willing to talk to women who've given birth and then believe their accounts, then I did misunderstand you, because that's not what "suspicious" means to me, particularly in that context, and I apologize. I should have asked for clarification.

Yeah, pretty much. And I apologize for lack of wording to clarify that suspicious, to me, is also interesting and intriguing. And in anthropology and sociology, it's not "willing to talk with": that's the most basic part of the damn research, and if you're not doing it, it's a bad one.

Edit:

Having a baby, yes. Giving birth? No.

True; my bad wording.


Miracleman - Aug 24, 2010 7:04:34 am PDT #29854 of 30000
No, I don't think I will - me, quoting Captain Steve Rogers, to all of 2020

Everyone else just watches.

Well, we also cringe, say dumb things ("Uh...breathe. Right? Breathe?"), think we're helpful, and acknowledge that, really, we're not helpful at all.


amyth - Aug 24, 2010 7:06:39 am PDT #29855 of 30000
And none of us deserving the cruelty or the grace -- Leonard Cohen

My feelings about whether or not I want to have children are so intensely personal, so wrapped up in a complex burrito (mmm...lunch) of my Issues, my past, my present, my relationship situation, my health, my financial situation, what I want from life, my Basically Everything That Is Me, that even I can't figure it all out, and I think I know myself pretty well. I'm not sure that any objective data on the matter would be helpful. I can't guarantee that if some of those variables changed tomorrow, that my feelings on having a kid wouldn't change. I reserve the right to be capricious.

Giving birth is an experience that is shared by a family; more than two people. And there are legal aspects to that as well: age of consent, who is to decide on what care should the mother and the baby will get if the mother is still under the influence of medical drugs. By your example, 9/11 happened just to the people who were killed/injured/had their loved ones killed or injured in that event.

No, just the opposite. While there are other people who are involved in the birth of a child, who are affected by it, who have opinions about it, who have intense feelings about it, it is ultimately a very personal, private decision between two people.

Similarly, while many, many people have intense feelings about 9/11, many of them very personal, because it was a tragic, personal event for many people, the issues surrounding the building of the Muslim cultural center are public issues.