But a competent neurologist would not try to argue that the NDE didn't happen, or that the rapture felt by most people who have NDEs is false. There's no contradiction between saying "I saw a bright light and my grandmother and felt a sense of peace" and agreeing that it was caused by chemistry.

And a competent scientist would have to agree that because an event COULD be caused by chemistry doesn't mean it WAS caused by chemistry.

(And surely any competent spectral dead grandmother could certainly make use of the available biological processes to tell you everything is going to be ok.)

(And surely any competent spectral dead grandmother could certainly make use of the available biological processes to tell you everything is going to be ok.)

Or to ask if you were wearing clean underwear.

belief that birth is beautiful or than an NDE was a legitimate mystical experience does not impact anyone else's ability to do anything.

Actually, that's not quite true - the natural birth movement, at its most extreme, encourages women to engage in some extremely risky behaviors. (Why trust some doctor when you can just have your baby at home in the bathtub? It's NATURAL!)

(I know it's not exactly what we're talking about, but seriously, DO NOT have a water birth at home unless you are a dolphin. Childbirth is a romantic and beautiful experience that also happens to involve several bodily excretions you do not want your newborn inhaling.)

Actually, that's not quite true - the natural birth movement, at its most extreme, encourages women to engage in some extremely risky behaviors. (Why trust some doctor when you can just have your baby at home in the bathtub? It's NATURAL!)

I get that, but that's not what I'm talking about either. Giving birth in a bathtub, while stupid, does not impact the ability of several people you don't know to play racquetball or worship as they will. It impacts you, it certainly impacts the baby...

Giving birth is an experience that is shared by a family; more than two people.

But the aspect of giving birth that is being discussed is the physical act of a baby exiting its mother's vagina. There are two people who truly experience that. Everyone else just watches.

Giving birth is an experience that is shared by a family;

Having a baby, yes. Giving birth? No.

Due to circumstances beyond my control, DH remembers more of Dylan being born than I do (fuck you, ketamine). Doesn't mean he experienced childbirth - he experienced watching childbirth.

I need to go out for an hour or so, but just that:

If what you meant by "suspicious" was that you have never gone through childbirth but it seems painful and not beautiful to you, but you're willing to talk to women who've given birth and then believe their accounts, then I did misunderstand you, because that's not what "suspicious" means to me, particularly in that context, and I apologize. I should have asked for clarification.

Yeah, pretty much. And I apologize for lack of wording to clarify that suspicious, to me, is also interesting and intriguing. And in anthropology and sociology, it's not "willing to talk with": that's the most basic part of the damn research, and if you're not doing it, it's a bad one.

Edit:

Having a baby, yes. Giving birth? No.

True; my bad wording.

Everyone else just watches.

Well, we also cringe, say dumb things ("Uh...breathe. Right? Breathe?"), think we're helpful, and acknowledge that, really, we're not helpful at all.

My feelings about whether or not I want to have children are so intensely personal, so wrapped up in a complex burrito (mmm...lunch) of my Issues, my past, my present, my relationship situation, my health, my financial situation, what I want from life, my Basically Everything That Is Me, that even I can't figure it all out, and I think I know myself pretty well. I'm not sure that any objective data on the matter would be helpful. I can't guarantee that if some of those variables changed tomorrow, that my feelings on having a kid wouldn't change. I reserve the right to be capricious.

Giving birth is an experience that is shared by a family; more than two people. And there are legal aspects to that as well: age of consent, who is to decide on what care should the mother and the baby will get if the mother is still under the influence of medical drugs. By your example, 9/11 happened just to the people who were killed/injured/had their loved ones killed or injured in that event.

No, just the opposite. While there are other people who are involved in the birth of a child, who are affected by it, who have opinions about it, who have intense feelings about it, it is ultimately a very personal, private decision between two people.

Similarly, while many, many people have intense feelings about 9/11, many of them very personal, because it was a tragic, personal event for many people, the issues surrounding the building of the Muslim cultural center are public issues.

Maybe it's the happy ending. By which I don't mean porn. Who has two thumbs and knows a million stupid "experts"? This girl. Although sometimes, among movement people I know, I'm concerned that leads to a major anti-intellectual bias.(Admittedly, because I'm vain as fuck about how smart I am...maybe I can have it called "Olbermann Syndrome" and classified as yet another secondary condition. Much more fun than the dyscalculia though.) And, honestly, as an editor, I fuckin' hate reading epicly misspelled, written on one line "outsider art" in the name of getting some wacko's "truth". If that makes me an elitist, sign me up. If you think I'm good enough, that is.