(I also thought the scene in Germany was just dumb. It was an awfully long walk to get to one line of Captain America telling us he fought the Nazis.)

No, that scene also had the cliche standard Holocaust survivor. Except, he'd have been, what two?

I knew I was supposed to think of Loki as the ultimate trickster

This is why I'm trying to remember if he was accepted as that Loki in Thor. Because he's totally not.

Avengers blahblah ahoy:

I don't see Loki being stifled, oppressed, cast aside, etc.

He wasn't! I thought that was the point. He THOUGHT he was. He sees himself as victimized by Odin and Thor, despite that they've never shown him anything but love and respect. He's crazy. Frankly, I know someone just like him, except, you know, on a smaller scale.

Oh, I understand Loki completely.

Me too. I mean, he's crazy and I'm not, but I understand his state of mind. I do think there's more to his resentment than being stifled, though. Even as children, Thor was running over him verbally and ahead of him physically, but that wasn't malice on Thor's part, just exuberence. Loki couldn't see that Thor didn't see the effect his actions had on Loki. That effect was way out of proportion to anything Thor was actually doing.

Loki, to me, was the Master from Doctor Who

Oh, I like this. The Psychotic Villian Bent on World Domination personality type.

Well, I have to admit, it never made me want to kill.

Some mayhem might have been on my mind occasionally.

"what was his motivation/plan"

Plan: I think Loki decided to conquer Earth and enslave humanity by default. The Other wanted the Tesseract, he threatened Loki with horrible torture if he didn't get it for him, and he was willing let Loki use his army. Loki wasn't gonna get away from The Other, he wasn't gonna be King of Asgard ever again, and the Earth was RIGHT THERE. Might as well be King of something. His plan was... well, there are a lot of Chitauri and some overwhelming alien technology, just throw that at Earth. I think that was the extent of the plan. Just get rid of the Hulk, and the others can't possibly be much of a threat. As billytea said, zero threat assessment ability. Loki's not a war strategist, anyway.

Motivation: Um. He's convinced he's superior to everyone who isn't Odin and Thor, convinced that he's been wronged by Odin and Thor, and really wants to Show Them that he's just as good as they are and They'll Be Sorry They Ever... oh, whatever, emo kid. He says he never wanted the throne, he just wanted to be Thor's equal. That's the motivation. He wanted Odin and Thor to see him as Thor's equal, and when he felt he'd lost the chance to prove that (by fucking up his opportunistic takeover of Asgard), he spun completely out of control and went off to destroy stuff. There were a couple points in the movie I could see him realizing he's gone way too far, but he doesn't see a way out that doesn't involve asking for forgiveness, so...

sweaty brother-loving

Ew. Just... no.

I don't think as shown it was extreme enough anyway

Again, I think that's kind of the point. Loki's an unstable personality; he's been teetering on the edge for most of his life, he didn't need a whole lot of push to go off the deep end. The character's backstory, even just as shown in the movie, shows that there really wasn't anything terribly bad that happened at all, he just thinks it did. He's nuts. (Well, he did get abandoned to die as an infant, but it's not like he remembers that part.)

How many people here were fans of Spike?

I enjoyed watching Spike fling himself about, but I can't say I was ever a "fan". He was too fucked up for me.

Also, what askye said.

where's the point where they go yes THAT Thor and Loki,

You mean in "Thor"? As I recall, his human friends thought he was nuts until the Three Warriors and Sif showed up. Which didn't make sense to me; if I saw them, I'd say, oh, nice RenFaire costumes! not Asgard is real omg.

I don't think the implication was that Black Widow got all scared of the Hulk because she's a girl. She's the only one who was chased and threatened by him. She pulled herself together when she heard that Clint was in danger, and she faced everything else without a wibble. I honestly can't see being terrifed of the Hulk rampaging at you as any implied weakness. He'd make anyone piss their pants.

Yes, but Avengers should ideally stand on its own, and my point is that this is pretty much the only (continued...)

( continues...) place it fails. Iron Man and Cap are explained and demonstrated really well, but Loki is underpainted.

I don't think so. I saw Avengers before I saw Thor or knew anything about it, and I found Loki's motivations perfectly clear.

Also when Loki first appears and he's talking at Fury, Fury says something like "it doesn't sound like freedom, it sounds like the other thing." I took "the other thing" to mean slavery.

Fury said, You keep talking about peace, I think you mean the other thing.

I'm going to ignore both those things that Joss apparently said.

I don't think the implication was that Black Widow got all scared of the Hulk because she's a girl

It's not a Hulk thing at all. Just that she's the one person that got to show vulnerability during the fights, as well as having generally less care taken about the credibility of her fight scenes, and I think it's just a convenient weak spot, because it's not as important for her.

If I were a Hawkeye fan in any way, I might be complaining about his short shrift too, but they went and cast Renner, so they obviously didn't care about me.

Excuse me, I have to go exterminate an alien race now...

Just that she's the one person that got to show vulnerability during the fights

From my perspective, Black Widow had a realistic self-appraisal of her skills, talents, and limitations. For example, Thor and Loki didn't have proper respect for the Hulk. Thor also didn't have proper respect for Captain America's shield!

Hawkeye was wondering if it was wise for her to ride the alien vessel to the port generator (or WTF), and she was like, "not a problem, I'm going for it." So I didn't see her fear of Hulk to be unreasonable or sexist. It was realistic. Thor would have just tried to fuck Hulk up, which is not the right play either in that circumstance.

But the same person that jumps on the Chitauri scooter does not, by my estimation, also wibble in the shadows. Not unless you show me character development inbetween. Without that, it's just inconsistency. I think she did what was required--they needed to show the Hulk was scary, so she had some vulnerability at that time. I just don't think they're going to do that with Tony or Steve. They don't have the leeway.

I don't think the implication was that Black Widow got all scared of the Hulk because she's a girl

Oh, I thought she was scared of the Hulk because unlike the opening scene with the Russian mobsters, or with Loki, they weren't people she could outwit/out manipulate.

Her character seems to have a running risk/reward assessment going on at all times along with a sense of how much leverage she has in a situation. There was no leverage with the Hulk on her tail.

Whereas even with long odds of jumping on a Chitauri flyer and putting out the doom machine (which I belatedly realized was another example of Joss' "break the power center" except they had enough special effects budget so that it didn't have to be a medallion) she was all, "No, it'll be fun." Because she's confident in her ability to affect the situation somehow.

To me, it was just uneven. I gained absolutely nothing from her looking scared in the shadows. Zip, nada, zilch. It didn't make the Hulk seem more terrifying, nor her more sensible. Her trying to talk Bruce down before he changed? Valuable point. Her looking him in the eye but pulling the gun on him (and knowing there was a battalion at her back) in Calcutta? Valuable point.

Not the lip wobbling though. Didn't like it at all.

I got that the only time Natasha is afraid is when she has no control in the situation.