( continues...) place it fails. Iron Man and Cap are explained and demonstrated really well, but Loki is underpainted.

I don't think so. I saw Avengers before I saw Thor or knew anything about it, and I found Loki's motivations perfectly clear.

Also when Loki first appears and he's talking at Fury, Fury says something like "it doesn't sound like freedom, it sounds like the other thing." I took "the other thing" to mean slavery.

Fury said, You keep talking about peace, I think you mean the other thing.

I'm going to ignore both those things that Joss apparently said.

I don't think the implication was that Black Widow got all scared of the Hulk because she's a girl

It's not a Hulk thing at all. Just that she's the one person that got to show vulnerability during the fights, as well as having generally less care taken about the credibility of her fight scenes, and I think it's just a convenient weak spot, because it's not as important for her.

If I were a Hawkeye fan in any way, I might be complaining about his short shrift too, but they went and cast Renner, so they obviously didn't care about me.

Excuse me, I have to go exterminate an alien race now...

Just that she's the one person that got to show vulnerability during the fights

From my perspective, Black Widow had a realistic self-appraisal of her skills, talents, and limitations. For example, Thor and Loki didn't have proper respect for the Hulk. Thor also didn't have proper respect for Captain America's shield!

Hawkeye was wondering if it was wise for her to ride the alien vessel to the port generator (or WTF), and she was like, "not a problem, I'm going for it." So I didn't see her fear of Hulk to be unreasonable or sexist. It was realistic. Thor would have just tried to fuck Hulk up, which is not the right play either in that circumstance.

But the same person that jumps on the Chitauri scooter does not, by my estimation, also wibble in the shadows. Not unless you show me character development inbetween. Without that, it's just inconsistency. I think she did what was required--they needed to show the Hulk was scary, so she had some vulnerability at that time. I just don't think they're going to do that with Tony or Steve. They don't have the leeway.

I don't think the implication was that Black Widow got all scared of the Hulk because she's a girl

Oh, I thought she was scared of the Hulk because unlike the opening scene with the Russian mobsters, or with Loki, they weren't people she could outwit/out manipulate.

Her character seems to have a running risk/reward assessment going on at all times along with a sense of how much leverage she has in a situation. There was no leverage with the Hulk on her tail.

Whereas even with long odds of jumping on a Chitauri flyer and putting out the doom machine (which I belatedly realized was another example of Joss' "break the power center" except they had enough special effects budget so that it didn't have to be a medallion) she was all, "No, it'll be fun." Because she's confident in her ability to affect the situation somehow.

To me, it was just uneven. I gained absolutely nothing from her looking scared in the shadows. Zip, nada, zilch. It didn't make the Hulk seem more terrifying, nor her more sensible. Her trying to talk Bruce down before he changed? Valuable point. Her looking him in the eye but pulling the gun on him (and knowing there was a battalion at her back) in Calcutta? Valuable point.

Not the lip wobbling though. Didn't like it at all.

I got that the only time Natasha is afraid is when she has no control in the situation.

I got that the only time Natasha is afraid is when she has no control in the situation.

My take as well.

If she can face down the Chitauri and do the shit she did at the end of the movie, her "no control" is totally the whim of the writer, and not plausibly extrapolated from the events onscreen.

It's clear I have a platonic Natasha Romanova in my head, and that wasn't it, right? They managed to nail Tony, far exceed my expectations of Steve, finally convince me of Bruce and the Other Guy, be totally consistent with the excellence of Nick, but I get a moustache twirling Loki, cardboard Clint, and conveniently human Natasha. And I'm grumpy in the face of an excellent movie not being more perfect.

Mine as well.

Say, I've been reading some comics and some fic, and what's the deal with how sometimes Natasha is called Natalia?

Also, I saw Contagion last night, and wow, is that not the movie to see when you're coming down with a cold. Also, even the most beautiful movie stars in it look like ordinarily-attractive folks you might see on the street.

Steven Soderbergh is brilliant.