I got that the only time Natasha is afraid is when she has no control in the situation.

My take as well.

If she can face down the Chitauri and do the shit she did at the end of the movie, her "no control" is totally the whim of the writer, and not plausibly extrapolated from the events onscreen.

It's clear I have a platonic Natasha Romanova in my head, and that wasn't it, right? They managed to nail Tony, far exceed my expectations of Steve, finally convince me of Bruce and the Other Guy, be totally consistent with the excellence of Nick, but I get a moustache twirling Loki, cardboard Clint, and conveniently human Natasha. And I'm grumpy in the face of an excellent movie not being more perfect.

Mine as well.

Say, I've been reading some comics and some fic, and what's the deal with how sometimes Natasha is called Natalia?

Also, I saw Contagion last night, and wow, is that not the movie to see when you're coming down with a cold. Also, even the most beautiful movie stars in it look like ordinarily-attractive folks you might see on the street.

Steven Soderbergh is brilliant.

If she can face down the Chitauri and do the shit she did at the end of the movie, her "no control" is totally the whim of the writer, and not plausibly extrapolated from the events onscreen.

I disagree. She had control in all the situations she was in with the Chitauri and the shutting-down-the-Tesseract. Not complete control, but that isn't necessary. She just has to know she can DO something. Against Hulk, she couldn't do anything except run and hide.

No, that scene also had the cliche standard Holocaust survivor. Except, he'd have been, what two?

I enjoyed the movie, but that scene really bothered me. It's like, please don't trot out the Holocaust for a two minute manipulative reference. I also don't think that some insane horned-helmet god brainwashing people's hearts with a staff and opening a rift into another galaxy and bringing weird giant-turtle-dragon creatures to terrorize New York really relates the frickin' Holocaust or WWII. There's only so much historical import in a blockbuster about magic hammers that I can take.

I did really like the personal relationships and stories in the movie, though. Especially the friendships between Tony/Bruce and Natasha/Clint.

I think it could have been done without the Holocaust reference.

She had control in all the situations she was in with the Chitauri

To me, she could jump on the sled and steer the alien and its technology simply because the script said that was a doable act. And she couldn't get the Hulk off her trail while the script said she couldn't. They're both ridiculous stunts, and the divide between them strikes me as nothing but arbitrary.

If she'd made the face of steely resolve instead of the wibble of vulnerability, what less would the movie have said to you?

If she'd made the face of steely resolve instead of the wibble of vulnerability, what less would the movie have said to you?

I don't get why the wibble of vulnerability is a bad thing when she's obviously brave and obviously competent and despite not having super powers does as much as any of them to win the fight.

You can be flawed, and vulnerable and wibble and cry and still kick ass.

You can be flawed, and vulnerable and wibble and cry and still kick ass.

Then why not give that moment to one of the guys?

It's not in character for the Black Widow that I've read, and I find the oversight of her character generally more sloppy than the rest (not Hawkeye, but he's barely in the movie). And that gets up my nose.

Yes, I don't want the only wibbly character on the team to be the woman. Not yet. Give me a few years of parity and call me back, and in the meanwhile, get better stunt doubles or spend more time CGIing her face in (oh, actually, the CGI of Tony's face into the helmet or the helmet onto his face was also awkward--the rest was pretty tight).