Apologizing before I begin for the serial posts:

Re: Sam -- I had mentioned I was “upset with what they've done with his character (or rather, with what they haven't done with his character) as the show's progressed that I have no faith in their treatment of him any longer.”

Where is it you want them to go with his character, Morgana?

I don’t know how coherent I can be tonight, I know I’m going to miss a lot, but I’ll do my best. I can say there’s a meta on lj by she_rockstar that between the meta and comments covers a lot of this material. But I’ll attempt a few thoughts of my own:

In the Pilot Sam was introduced as a young man who had been determined enough to get away from his itinerant, oppressive family that he found his own way to get to college against their very vocal and unforgiving opposition. It showed remarkable intelligence (he earned a full scholarship to Stanford that he maintained for 4 years, and was about to go to an interview for Law school) and strength of will to continue in the face of disapproval from his only family and especially from Dean, his primary source of emotional support his entire life.

I think all of this is indicative of someone amazing - someone that I'd like to know. Yet the show has not once, ever, shown this as being anything positive. Since it's written from Dean's point of view Sam's time at Stanford is always referred to as selfish, or as one of the times he “ran away.” This is one of the few shows on TV (at least that I watch) where someone who is strong and independent and intelligent is regularly regarded as being wrong for following that path. If he had stayed 'home' in the family business, that obviously would have been the correct thing to do. He would have been miserable, but John and Dean would have been happy, so it would have been right. (Interestingly it wouldn't have been 'selfish' on their part to force Sam to stay, it was just 'selfish' on Sam's part to leave.)

Remember when Sam had psychic dreams that told them about people who needed who needed their help? Did that ability just go away? What about the telekinesis that saved Dean’s life? We’ve never seen it again. Sam was being developed as a psychic power but they apparently just dropped that storyline.

In season 4 in particular too many of his actions were offscreen leaving us to try to interpret what the hell was going on, trying to make sense of his behavior. It went on long enough that by the time the writers got around to explaining things he had become unsympathetic to a large portion of fandom.

Then there was the whole Boy King thing. Azazel was grooming him. Lillith wanted to kill him, there were demons ready to follow him, the Seven Deadly Sins recognize him on sight, the Four Horsemen recognize him, all of which would indicate a certain level of potential incipient power for him, Sam, not just as Lucifer’s meatsuit, but that story’s dribbled away too.

More recently there have been things like Sam having been tarred by angels, demons and hunters alike as the sole being responsible for starting the Apocalypse. He gets to bear the guilt for that. There were 66 seals -- Dean himself broke the first one. Practically nobody else seems to know this. (We only find out Sam knows because of a throwaway line; it was a wasted dramatic opportunity). The demons and other hunters don't comment on it. Not to mention the other 64 freaking seals that had to fall before the Apocalypse could begin. But still, Sam gets all the blame.

A particularly huge issue is that once Dean has passed judgment upon something that’s the end of the discussion. Sam has never gotten the opportunity to explain that he didn’t “choose a demon over his brother,” and since this is such a tremendous stumbling block for them I really wish they’d get it out of the way. I know from Dean’s perspective Sam fucked Ruby and drank her blood and therefore betrayed him. From Sam’s perspective he was trying to get as strong as possible before the Lilith showdown and Ruby was a means to an end. Particularly once he had Dean back from hell – he wasn’t able to save Dean the first time; he was determined to be strong enough to save him this time. But we, and Dean, need to hear that from Sam.

An interesting point from the meta I linked:

Sam saying Yes or No is a big deal, especially when he’s capable of either. No matter how he swears he would never say yes, so far it seems he can be compelled by some very outstanding reasons. In Dean’s case, he can be seen as heroic either way: he says ‘yes’ to archangel Michael who will try saving mankind and destroying evil (who would be wearing Sam’s face, of course), or says ‘no’ and stays ‘true to himself,’ is still heroic for refusing to bend for beings he doesn’t trust and accuses of being “dicks with wings”.

me:Dean will struggle and suffer, I don’t doubt that, and I believe that whatever he does he will do with the best of intentions. But the deck is stacked; whatever he does, he’ll come out smelling like roses.

and

“It’s the Great Pumpkin, Sam Winchester” and “On the Head of a Pin” were two season 4 episodes where Sam technically saves the day, but isn’t regarded as a hero. Not even an anti-hero; he’s looked at as a man on a power trip, one who can’t get enough of his perceived superiority over humans and demons alike.

me:Whereas it’s going to be a whole lot harder for Sam to get to appear heroic.

And while I'm here, I call bullshit on the whole "all you ever do is run away" trope that Dean repeats so often that he actually has Sam believing and apologizing for it now. I looked over the episode list and tried to figure out how many times Sam actually ran away:

In 5.16 - Dark Side Of the Moon - we learned that at an undetermined age he had run away for 2 weeks - this incident is questionable, because it depends on his age at the time. If he was a child I'm inclined to forgive him because kids do dumb stuff; if he was a teenager it's more serious because he damn well should have considered the impact his leaving would have on Dean.

In 1.1 we find out he was in college - I refuse to consider this "running away." Dean, he went to college. He had a right to his own life. Millions of people do it. Grow up and get over your issues already.

1.11 - Scarecrow - Sam stopped the car after a nasty fight and insisted that he wanted to continue looking for Dad and the demon that killed Jess while Dean continued to follow orders. Went walking off down the road. Definitely counts as running away. Although, when there are only 2 of you in a car and you disagree on which direction to go, the only way it's going to end is with you going in opposite directions. Or with one of you in the trunk.

1.15 - The Benders - Sam was kidnapped. Doesn't count.

2.10 - Hunted - Sam was totally freaked out after Dean told him John thought maybe he'd go evil and that John had assigned Dean (who never turned down an order from Dad) the job of killing him if it happened. He took off to do some research on his dee-monic powers. Counts as running away.

2.14 - Born Under a Bad Sign - Sam was possessed by Meg. Doesn't count.

4.21 - When the Levee Breaks - Sam was strung out after the visions and enforced detox when Castiel opened the door. He was also convinced he had to stop Lillith to stop the Apocalypse and therefore, oh yeah, save the world. Counts.

5.2 - Good God, Y'All - Sam and Dean calmly discussed the situation and they agreed to separate because Sam shouldn't be hunting. Does not count as running away.

So unless I'm missing a lot of references, what I'm left with is: possibly the incident referred to in heaven, after the fight in Scarecrow, in Hunted, and in When the Levee Breaks. Three, or maybe four times over what?27 years? Yet Dean throws this at him as though it occurs every other week.

You've very thoroughly and articulately outlined your complaints about how Sam's character has been misused, thank you for taking the time. It's obvious this has been bothering you for a long time.

But you haven't answered the question of how you wanted to see his character used. What do you think his path should have been, and where and how would you have changed things? Outline for us the show you wanted to see, the show as you think it should have been.

“It's the Great Pumpkin, Sam Winchester” and “On the Head of a Pin” were two season 4 episodes where Sam technically saves the day, but isn't regarded as a hero.

He's continuing willfully on a path that's supposed to end with the end of the world. How heroic is that?

Compare that to MBV where Dean is still upset, but I don't feel the text judges him, and in fact he pulls what no one else has.

He was wrong to leave John and Dean, because of destiny, but none of them knew that.

His S4 journey made complete sense to me. I can see you wanting him more screentime, but what didn't they explain?

And why wouldn't a guy with abandonment issues characterise Sam's behaviour as running away? Why is he suddenly the voice of reason, in the middle of a hostile depressive and suicidal episode?

I disagreed as soon as I saw the webclip that Sam was wrong to run away, but I still think it was the right thing to say.

This is one of the few shows on TV (at least that I watch) where someone who is strong and independent and intelligent is regularly regarded as being wrong for following that path. If he had stayed 'home' in the family business, that obviously would have been the correct thing to do.

From the perspective of any of us, who had "normal" lives, Sam's choice to leave is what's best for his personal future. Of course Dean views it as selfish, because Dean never got to make (or feels like he never got to make) those kinds of choices. By the time Sam would have been leaving Dean would have been 22, and hunting was not only his whole life, but by then he was probably long past deciding that it would be his life's work.

I think, if we hadn't had Jessica's death in the pilot, which is the event that sparked Sam entering the hunter's life on his own terms, rather than being a passenger on John's vengeance trip, then a return to the life from what he had built for himself would have been unwise. And maybe it was still unwise, but he was young and grieving, and so very much his father's son.

(Interestingly it wouldn't have been 'selfish' on their part to force Sam to stay, it was just 'selfish' on Sam's part to leave.)

I'm pretty sure that even at that age, they were codependent enough that if Dean had tried hard enough, he could have convinced Sam to stay. He didn't play that card because he understood that Sam could probably make a go of it and build himself a real life, and Dean didn't want to deny him that opportunity, even though it hurt. You don't want to send your kid off to make their own life because you will miss them, but you do it because they have to make their own way.

he says ‘yes’ to archangel Michael who will try saving mankind and destroying evil (who would be wearing Sam’s face, of course)

Just now, when Dean was planning to turn himself over, Sam is not yet Lucifer's vessel. Dean was giving himself up so that Michael would wreak his holy vengeance post-haste before that could happen, because he didn't trust Sam to say no if Lucifer found them again. While he didn't say it (which is possibly the show's fault for not telling enough and expecting we'll all assume the same thing), I fully expected Sam to be included on the Short List of Heavenly Amnesty. After all, Dean was putting all of his faith in Michael's abilities, even though he's not really a fan; I figured he was counting on Michael and the other angels to protect Sam from being the devil's meatsuit.

The alcoholic that Famine got was someone on the wagon. His victims were people who had been denying themselves something. He had been denying himself nothing that Famine could provide, which seemed to have the effect of tamping down on normal, and giving the Horseman nothing to work with.

This is a good point. Though I was STILL expecting a serious binge.

I disagreed as soon as I saw the webclip that Sam was wrong to run away, but I still think it was the right thing to say.

A lot of the discussion I've seen elsewhere has been around running away vs. leaving to go do your own thing, and the common belief it's the former for which Sam is apologizing. The method of his leaving, not the leaving itself. There's leaving, after all, and then there's cutting contact completely, which was what Sam had done.

Remember when Sam had psychic dreams that told them about people who needed who needed their help? Did that ability just go away? What about the telekinesis that saved Dean’s life? We’ve never seen it again. Sam was being developed as a psychic power but they apparently just dropped that storyline.

They didn't drop it so much as fold it into the Azazel story, at some point making it explicit that his dreams were all somehow connected in a Rube Goldberg fashion to it.

there's cutting contact completely, which was what Sam had done.

He did, yes, but John was the one that told him to not come back if he left. (Which I don't totally blame John for either--while I know some of what John said was based on anger, I also think some of it was based on a desire to get Sam out of the life/out of harm's way).

He did, yes, but John was the one that told him to not come back if he left. (Which I don't totally blame John for either--while I know some of what John said was based on anger, I also think some of it was based on a desire to get Sam out of the life/out of harm's way).

I wish I had a link to the discussion handy -- it's more nuanced than my description. One of the things I love about this show, even five seasons in, is that they allow both the leads to be wrong, or more often, to be right, but going about it in the wrong way.

Speaking purely as a parent, "If you walk out of this house, don't you ever come back" is one of those hoptoads that you hear only after it's left your lips. You hear it echo and look around for your own parent and only then realize that no, you are the one who said it in anger, fear, and exasperation. Much like, "because I said so," and "Don't make me pull this car over. Because I will."

Something said in the heat of the moment, when you never intended or wanted to say that very thing. Perhaps John meant it to keep Sam out of harm's way. Perhaps he was just angry and scared and said something he didn't mean. The mistake was not talking about it before Sam took it literally and walked out--in hormonally-charged defiance, it's obvious.

I've lived with a man in midlife crisis and emotional stress and a pair of teenage males in a churning sea of burgeoning hormones, convinced of their own rightness and invincibility. It's like breathing testosterone soup. At times, none of them are rational or coherent.