there's cutting contact completely, which was what Sam had done.

He did, yes, but John was the one that told him to not come back if he left. (Which I don't totally blame John for either--while I know some of what John said was based on anger, I also think some of it was based on a desire to get Sam out of the life/out of harm's way).

He did, yes, but John was the one that told him to not come back if he left. (Which I don't totally blame John for either--while I know some of what John said was based on anger, I also think some of it was based on a desire to get Sam out of the life/out of harm's way).

I wish I had a link to the discussion handy -- it's more nuanced than my description. One of the things I love about this show, even five seasons in, is that they allow both the leads to be wrong, or more often, to be right, but going about it in the wrong way.

Speaking purely as a parent, "If you walk out of this house, don't you ever come back" is one of those hoptoads that you hear only after it's left your lips. You hear it echo and look around for your own parent and only then realize that no, you are the one who said it in anger, fear, and exasperation. Much like, "because I said so," and "Don't make me pull this car over. Because I will."

Something said in the heat of the moment, when you never intended or wanted to say that very thing. Perhaps John meant it to keep Sam out of harm's way. Perhaps he was just angry and scared and said something he didn't mean. The mistake was not talking about it before Sam took it literally and walked out--in hormonally-charged defiance, it's obvious.

I've lived with a man in midlife crisis and emotional stress and a pair of teenage males in a churning sea of burgeoning hormones, convinced of their own rightness and invincibility. It's like breathing testosterone soup. At times, none of them are rational or coherent.

I don't feel that the show has downplayed or mistreated Sam at all.

Sam wasn't selfish to want a different life for himself at all (because that is normal -- growing up means taking what your upbringing has given you and applying it to your own choices, making your own life), but I also don't think Dean was selfish to want him to stay -- Sam is all he has.

I think it's also telling, as Ailleann points out, that Dean never guilted him into staying. Even in the pilot, the decision to return to that life is Sam's, and it's horrible it took Jess's death to provoke it, but it also gave Sam some insight into how John and Dean must have felt when Mary died.

I also think it's always been made clear that Sam doesn't feel what they do is unworthy at all -- his empathy for the victims is often more poignant than Dean's. His focus may have been sharper at times -- don't take the minor cases, focus on finding John and the demon -- but he knows that what they do is something most people can't, and that a lot of people need them.

All of the storylines you say, Morgana, that the show has dropped for Sam don't seem dropped to me -- as Plei points out, they've evolved as the reasons behind his destiny have. Maybe death, however brief, fucked with Sam's psychic visions and telekinetic powers, but either way, I don't the lack of them now makes Sam any less important to the plot.

I think it's also important what both boys have learned as the series has progressed. At the start, it was the younger son wanting normal and the older son blindly loyal to the family tradition -- I think the show has gone to great lengths to make it clear both that Sam has been able to see some of the reasons for John's choices, and that Dean has learned how much damage that upbringing did to both of them, despite whatever good they do when they're saving people. Sam is the one, to me, who remains the least damaged, despite his demonic blood blah blah -- he's still fighting, still willing to believe in them and what they do, and determined to rectify his own mistakes.

Neither of them is perfect in my eyes, neither of them is more right than the other (most of the time), and I love them both despite their flaws. If anything, I wish Kripke hadn't decided to make their destiny predestined -- I think it would have been interesting if their choices were solely based on their upbringing, their perspectives, the differences between them.

That said, I like the way they're handling their decisions to fight that destiny, too.

In which episode did Dean reveal he had a GED? Also, when was the first time we saw them recite the exorcism ritual from memory? Was it Sam who did that first?

I think it would have been interesting if their choices were solely based on their upbringing, their perspectives, the differences between them.

I like to think that their choices were personal, but the situations they were put in were predestined.

Um, "I've got a GED and a give-'em-hell attitude." Early S5. It was never canon till then. I think the first time Sam recited an exorcism off book was Jus In Belo. But that's a guess, I could be completely wrong.

Aha. Supernaturalwiki is our friend for transcripts and narrowing that down. Sympathy For The Devil is the GED reveal.

When did we first see Dean recite the ritual from memory? I know he muffs it in Sin City and Swap Meat. Has he ever done it right?

I'm loving reading all the Sam exploration.

I don't think they've ever shown him doing it off-book and not messing it up. You'd think it would have been a priority, even if they didn't begin performing exorcisms until Devil's Trap.

I don't think they've ever shown him doing it off-book and not messing it up.

Grr. That's kinda irritating. I get the gag reasons for the way they did it in Swap Meat, but he knows better.