Buffy: A Guide, but no water or food. So it leads me to the sacred place and then a week later it leads you to my bleached bones? Giles: Buffy, really. It takes more than a week to bleach bones.

'Dirty Girls'


Supernatural 2: Why is it our job to save everybody?  

[NAFDA]. This is where we talk about the CW series Supernatural! Anything that's aired in the US on TV (including promos) is fair game. No spoilers though — if you post one by accident, an admin will delete it.


Morgana - Apr 19, 2010 10:41:09 pm PDT #7735 of 30002
"I make mistakes, but I am on the side of Good," the Golux said, "by accident and happenchance.” – The 13 Clocks, James Thurber

More recently there have been things like Sam having been tarred by angels, demons and hunters alike as the sole being responsible for starting the Apocalypse. He gets to bear the guilt for that. There were 66 seals -- Dean himself broke the first one. Practically nobody else seems to know this. (We only find out Sam knows because of a throwaway line; it was a wasted dramatic opportunity). The demons and other hunters don't comment on it. Not to mention the other 64 freaking seals that had to fall before the Apocalypse could begin. But still, Sam gets all the blame.

A particularly huge issue is that once Dean has passed judgment upon something that’s the end of the discussion. Sam has never gotten the opportunity to explain that he didn’t “choose a demon over his brother,” and since this is such a tremendous stumbling block for them I really wish they’d get it out of the way. I know from Dean’s perspective Sam fucked Ruby and drank her blood and therefore betrayed him. From Sam’s perspective he was trying to get as strong as possible before the Lilith showdown and Ruby was a means to an end. Particularly once he had Dean back from hell – he wasn’t able to save Dean the first time; he was determined to be strong enough to save him this time. But we, and Dean, need to hear that from Sam.

An interesting point from the meta I linked:

Sam saying Yes or No is a big deal, especially when he’s capable of either. No matter how he swears he would never say yes, so far it seems he can be compelled by some very outstanding reasons. In Dean’s case, he can be seen as heroic either way: he says ‘yes’ to archangel Michael who will try saving mankind and destroying evil (who would be wearing Sam’s face, of course), or says ‘no’ and stays ‘true to himself,’ is still heroic for refusing to bend for beings he doesn’t trust and accuses of being “dicks with wings”.

me:Dean will struggle and suffer, I don’t doubt that, and I believe that whatever he does he will do with the best of intentions. But the deck is stacked; whatever he does, he’ll come out smelling like roses.

and

“It’s the Great Pumpkin, Sam Winchester” and “On the Head of a Pin” were two season 4 episodes where Sam technically saves the day, but isn’t regarded as a hero. Not even an anti-hero; he’s looked at as a man on a power trip, one who can’t get enough of his perceived superiority over humans and demons alike.

me:Whereas it’s going to be a whole lot harder for Sam to get to appear heroic.


Morgana - Apr 19, 2010 10:41:54 pm PDT #7736 of 30002
"I make mistakes, but I am on the side of Good," the Golux said, "by accident and happenchance.” – The 13 Clocks, James Thurber

And while I'm here, I call bullshit on the whole "all you ever do is run away" trope that Dean repeats so often that he actually has Sam believing and apologizing for it now. I looked over the episode list and tried to figure out how many times Sam actually ran away:

In 5.16 - Dark Side Of the Moon - we learned that at an undetermined age he had run away for 2 weeks - this incident is questionable, because it depends on his age at the time. If he was a child I'm inclined to forgive him because kids do dumb stuff; if he was a teenager it's more serious because he damn well should have considered the impact his leaving would have on Dean.

In 1.1 we find out he was in college - I refuse to consider this "running away." Dean, he went to college. He had a right to his own life. Millions of people do it. Grow up and get over your issues already.

1.11 - Scarecrow - Sam stopped the car after a nasty fight and insisted that he wanted to continue looking for Dad and the demon that killed Jess while Dean continued to follow orders. Went walking off down the road. Definitely counts as running away. Although, when there are only 2 of you in a car and you disagree on which direction to go, the only way it's going to end is with you going in opposite directions. Or with one of you in the trunk.

1.15 - The Benders - Sam was kidnapped. Doesn't count.

2.10 - Hunted - Sam was totally freaked out after Dean told him John thought maybe he'd go evil and that John had assigned Dean (who never turned down an order from Dad) the job of killing him if it happened. He took off to do some research on his dee-monic powers. Counts as running away.

2.14 - Born Under a Bad Sign - Sam was possessed by Meg. Doesn't count.

4.21 - When the Levee Breaks - Sam was strung out after the visions and enforced detox when Castiel opened the door. He was also convinced he had to stop Lillith to stop the Apocalypse and therefore, oh yeah, save the world. Counts.

5.2 - Good God, Y'All - Sam and Dean calmly discussed the situation and they agreed to separate because Sam shouldn't be hunting. Does not count as running away.

So unless I'm missing a lot of references, what I'm left with is: possibly the incident referred to in heaven, after the fight in Scarecrow, in Hunted, and in When the Levee Breaks. Three, or maybe four times over what?27 years? Yet Dean throws this at him as though it occurs every other week.


Beverly - Apr 20, 2010 1:05:29 am PDT #7737 of 30002
Days shrink and grow cold, sunlight through leaves is my song. Winter is long.

You've very thoroughly and articulately outlined your complaints about how Sam's character has been misused, thank you for taking the time. It's obvious this has been bothering you for a long time.

But you haven't answered the question of how you wanted to see his character used. What do you think his path should have been, and where and how would you have changed things? Outline for us the show you wanted to see, the show as you think it should have been.


§ ita § - Apr 20, 2010 3:24:03 am PDT #7738 of 30002
Well not canonically, no, but this is transformative fiction.

“It's the Great Pumpkin, Sam Winchester” and “On the Head of a Pin” were two season 4 episodes where Sam technically saves the day, but isn't regarded as a hero.

He's continuing willfully on a path that's supposed to end with the end of the world. How heroic is that?

Compare that to MBV where Dean is still upset, but I don't feel the text judges him, and in fact he pulls what no one else has.

He was wrong to leave John and Dean, because of destiny, but none of them knew that.

His S4 journey made complete sense to me. I can see you wanting him more screentime, but what didn't they explain?

And why wouldn't a guy with abandonment issues characterise Sam's behaviour as running away? Why is he suddenly the voice of reason, in the middle of a hostile depressive and suicidal episode?

I disagreed as soon as I saw the webclip that Sam was wrong to run away, but I still think it was the right thing to say.


Ailleann - Apr 20, 2010 5:52:23 am PDT #7739 of 30002
vanguard of the socialist Hollywood liberal homosexualist agenda

This is one of the few shows on TV (at least that I watch) where someone who is strong and independent and intelligent is regularly regarded as being wrong for following that path. If he had stayed 'home' in the family business, that obviously would have been the correct thing to do.

From the perspective of any of us, who had "normal" lives, Sam's choice to leave is what's best for his personal future. Of course Dean views it as selfish, because Dean never got to make (or feels like he never got to make) those kinds of choices. By the time Sam would have been leaving Dean would have been 22, and hunting was not only his whole life, but by then he was probably long past deciding that it would be his life's work.

I think, if we hadn't had Jessica's death in the pilot, which is the event that sparked Sam entering the hunter's life on his own terms, rather than being a passenger on John's vengeance trip, then a return to the life from what he had built for himself would have been unwise. And maybe it was still unwise, but he was young and grieving, and so very much his father's son.

(Interestingly it wouldn't have been 'selfish' on their part to force Sam to stay, it was just 'selfish' on Sam's part to leave.)

I'm pretty sure that even at that age, they were codependent enough that if Dean had tried hard enough, he could have convinced Sam to stay. He didn't play that card because he understood that Sam could probably make a go of it and build himself a real life, and Dean didn't want to deny him that opportunity, even though it hurt. You don't want to send your kid off to make their own life because you will miss them, but you do it because they have to make their own way.

he says ‘yes’ to archangel Michael who will try saving mankind and destroying evil (who would be wearing Sam’s face, of course)

Just now, when Dean was planning to turn himself over, Sam is not yet Lucifer's vessel. Dean was giving himself up so that Michael would wreak his holy vengeance post-haste before that could happen, because he didn't trust Sam to say no if Lucifer found them again. While he didn't say it (which is possibly the show's fault for not telling enough and expecting we'll all assume the same thing), I fully expected Sam to be included on the Short List of Heavenly Amnesty. After all, Dean was putting all of his faith in Michael's abilities, even though he's not really a fan; I figured he was counting on Michael and the other angels to protect Sam from being the devil's meatsuit.


P.M. Marc - Apr 20, 2010 6:39:44 am PDT #7740 of 30002
So come, my friends, be not afraid/We are so lightly here/It is in love that we are made; In love we disappear

The alcoholic that Famine got was someone on the wagon. His victims were people who had been denying themselves something. He had been denying himself nothing that Famine could provide, which seemed to have the effect of tamping down on normal, and giving the Horseman nothing to work with.

This is a good point. Though I was STILL expecting a serious binge.

I disagreed as soon as I saw the webclip that Sam was wrong to run away, but I still think it was the right thing to say.

A lot of the discussion I've seen elsewhere has been around running away vs. leaving to go do your own thing, and the common belief it's the former for which Sam is apologizing. The method of his leaving, not the leaving itself. There's leaving, after all, and then there's cutting contact completely, which was what Sam had done.

Remember when Sam had psychic dreams that told them about people who needed who needed their help? Did that ability just go away? What about the telekinesis that saved Dean’s life? We’ve never seen it again. Sam was being developed as a psychic power but they apparently just dropped that storyline.

They didn't drop it so much as fold it into the Azazel story, at some point making it explicit that his dreams were all somehow connected in a Rube Goldberg fashion to it.


Lee - Apr 20, 2010 7:08:23 am PDT #7741 of 30002
The feeling you get when your brain finally lets your heart get in its pants.

there's cutting contact completely, which was what Sam had done.

He did, yes, but John was the one that told him to not come back if he left. (Which I don't totally blame John for either--while I know some of what John said was based on anger, I also think some of it was based on a desire to get Sam out of the life/out of harm's way).


P.M. Marc - Apr 20, 2010 7:17:49 am PDT #7742 of 30002
So come, my friends, be not afraid/We are so lightly here/It is in love that we are made; In love we disappear

He did, yes, but John was the one that told him to not come back if he left. (Which I don't totally blame John for either--while I know some of what John said was based on anger, I also think some of it was based on a desire to get Sam out of the life/out of harm's way).

I wish I had a link to the discussion handy -- it's more nuanced than my description. One of the things I love about this show, even five seasons in, is that they allow both the leads to be wrong, or more often, to be right, but going about it in the wrong way.


Beverly - Apr 20, 2010 7:21:04 am PDT #7743 of 30002
Days shrink and grow cold, sunlight through leaves is my song. Winter is long.

Speaking purely as a parent, "If you walk out of this house, don't you ever come back" is one of those hoptoads that you hear only after it's left your lips. You hear it echo and look around for your own parent and only then realize that no, you are the one who said it in anger, fear, and exasperation. Much like, "because I said so," and "Don't make me pull this car over. Because I will."

Something said in the heat of the moment, when you never intended or wanted to say that very thing. Perhaps John meant it to keep Sam out of harm's way. Perhaps he was just angry and scared and said something he didn't mean. The mistake was not talking about it before Sam took it literally and walked out--in hormonally-charged defiance, it's obvious.

I've lived with a man in midlife crisis and emotional stress and a pair of teenage males in a churning sea of burgeoning hormones, convinced of their own rightness and invincibility. It's like breathing testosterone soup. At times, none of them are rational or coherent.


Amy - Apr 20, 2010 7:29:44 am PDT #7744 of 30002
Because books.

I don't feel that the show has downplayed or mistreated Sam at all.

Sam wasn't selfish to want a different life for himself at all (because that is normal -- growing up means taking what your upbringing has given you and applying it to your own choices, making your own life), but I also don't think Dean was selfish to want him to stay -- Sam is all he has.

I think it's also telling, as Ailleann points out, that Dean never guilted him into staying. Even in the pilot, the decision to return to that life is Sam's, and it's horrible it took Jess's death to provoke it, but it also gave Sam some insight into how John and Dean must have felt when Mary died.

I also think it's always been made clear that Sam doesn't feel what they do is unworthy at all -- his empathy for the victims is often more poignant than Dean's. His focus may have been sharper at times -- don't take the minor cases, focus on finding John and the demon -- but he knows that what they do is something most people can't, and that a lot of people need them.

All of the storylines you say, Morgana, that the show has dropped for Sam don't seem dropped to me -- as Plei points out, they've evolved as the reasons behind his destiny have. Maybe death, however brief, fucked with Sam's psychic visions and telekinetic powers, but either way, I don't the lack of them now makes Sam any less important to the plot.

I think it's also important what both boys have learned as the series has progressed. At the start, it was the younger son wanting normal and the older son blindly loyal to the family tradition -- I think the show has gone to great lengths to make it clear both that Sam has been able to see some of the reasons for John's choices, and that Dean has learned how much damage that upbringing did to both of them, despite whatever good they do when they're saving people. Sam is the one, to me, who remains the least damaged, despite his demonic blood blah blah -- he's still fighting, still willing to believe in them and what they do, and determined to rectify his own mistakes.

Neither of them is perfect in my eyes, neither of them is more right than the other (most of the time), and I love them both despite their flaws. If anything, I wish Kripke hadn't decided to make their destiny predestined -- I think it would have been interesting if their choices were solely based on their upbringing, their perspectives, the differences between them.

That said, I like the way they're handling their decisions to fight that destiny, too.