I have no idea who Michael Shanks is, or where he's from, so it didn't ping me.

I think we're still getting good examples of Sam and Dean saving people, normal people. The family in Family Remains, for one. Even Gary in Swap Meat, and the pretty bartender from Free to Be You and Me.

I also don't think it's unusual that we don't get as much of that now -- while they're dealing less with everyday people and more often with bigger, badder evil, the focus is also turning inward, to *them* and what it means to do this job, to battle that evil, what their choices are when everyone is telling them their destinies have been already been determined.

I have no idea who Michael Shanks is, or where he's from,

He starred on about nine seasons of Stargate: SG1, so he's pretty huge in the Vancouver sci-fi community. Until I read the interview, it hadn't crossed my mind he'd have less than the largest guest role. He's Daniel Jackson!

The show and the characters have become more insulated though, from everyday life and the people who live it. They're more rarified creatures, heroes rather than blue-collar workmen, legendary figures rather than guys who can be flirted with, or engaged in conversation.

When was the last time we saw Dean flirt? Really, the last time he played pool? The last pool table I recall was Sam running a game in S4, when Ruby showed up.

I get that the writers are exploring the interior of their heads. I'm just saying that could happen without an apocalypse to set the Winchesters apart as saviors or the ruination of life on earth. The scope is too big to allow for identification with those characters, certainly carried over several episodes. Carried over three seasons? They're coasting on the good will and familiarity built in S1 and S2.

I just think they've taken entirely too long building up to and resolving the whole armageddon thing, if that's how they're determined to go. I'm bored with it. I want to know what happens *after* all the thrilling heroics, I guess.

I may regret these words, but I'm looking forward to the apocalypse ending.

Dean made eyes at Leah, or enough to set her father's radar off. I'm assuming they're still running game, because they're still spending money. We're just not seeing it. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Dean's not getting as much tail as he apparently got (because we didn't really see that much) because he's in a much more bummed headspace, and he's probably only getting his jollies when he's sleeping.

The scope is too big to allow for identification with those characters

Identification with Sam and Dean? I don't feel their plight any less keenly now than I did before. They still break my heart like they did in season 1.

I don't see them as heroes or legends, either. I see them as outcasts and outsiders who have to operate even further on the periphery of society than before, because they've been tainted by their apparent destinies. I don't see them as elevated in any way. I see them as dragged down by the weight of it all.

I see them as outcasts and outsiders who have to operate even further on the periphery of society than before, because they've been tainted by their apparent destinies. I don't see them as elevated in any way. I see them as dragged down by the weight of it all.

I have to agree there.

The "elevation" comes from outside agencies trying to convince them they are more better specialer than ordinary people.

And on that note, the whole predisposed bloodline thing has not been explained to my satisfaction. "It always had to be you."

Yeah? Why?

Um, well. 'Cause. Because it had to. Be you.

Says who? Where is it written, and by whom. Produce the paperwork. Because I'm not feeling it.

Yeah, well - Castiel has all the prophets names memorized. Cause...umm.... Why didn't he warn them about Chuck?

From earlier....

The only thing that we have to dispute that Ben isn't Dean's is Lisa's word.

**blinks**hmmm... And the only thing to say that Ben is his son is the word of oodles of fangirls. Lisa is his mother, I would think she'd know. Apparently in her self-proclaimed wild days she was in the habit of taking home strange men for weekends of sex, and she had a physical type, and Dean fit that type. Some might think that Lisa holds a special place amongst the throngs of women Dean's supposedly been with (even though we've been told before that Cassie was supposed to be his one brush with an actual almost-relationship) but there's nothing to say that he holds an equally high status in her memories. ("Best sex I ever had" for one weekend 10 years ago does not equal love of my life forever after I want him to be the father of my child and build a life with me.) Or as has been suggested, she might be in another relationship.

Also, since we've been beaten over the head with the "Winchester blood is so special" anvil, if Ben were a Winchester both the angels and the demons would have set up housekeeping across the street to watch his every move from the time he was born.

I have no idea who Michael Shanks is, or where he's from, so it didn't ping me.

Also, in addition to SG:1, he's Mr Lexa Doig. You know her from The End.

**blinks**hmmm

wow

And the only thing to say that Ben is his son is the word of oodles of fangirls.

The show made him look like Dean, talk like Dean, and bond with Dean. They named the character "son" in hebrew. They aligned the timeline so that it was possible. There was a reason that people started thinking that way. I haven't checked out twop or moved outside of my flist but I had the impression that the overall feeling of Ben being Dean's son was in opposition to the fangirls. I was reading a lot of outrage and problems and not one "woohoo, I knew it all along!" I read Mo Ryan's column where she makes some assumptions toward the show wanting us to believe Dean thought Ben was his son, but even that seemed neutral. The only way that Ben is going to be legitimately accepted tolerated as Dean's son is if the show produces the results of a test or a birth certificate.

However, I rewatched Ben in The Kids are Alright this afternoon and I didn't get any indication from Lisa's delivery that she wasn't telling the truth. From the way she told Dean that he was off the hook and didn't seem to be covering anything up or worried at any point in the conversation, I'd say she was telling the truth and really had a blood test. But Show did leave that open and we don't know there was a blood test done.

("Best sex I ever had" for one weekend 10 years ago does not equal love of me life forever after I want him to be the father of my child and build a life with me.)

I agree. I've never thought that Lisa was in love with Dean. Although I do think it's weird that she would discuss with neighbors/friends about a random weekend from ten years ago with enough detail that the name raises red flags when someone shows up.

if Ben were a Winchester both the angels and the demons would have set up housekeeping across the street to watch his every move from the time he was born.

Unless mixing with Lisa's blood offset the convergence of bloodlines of John and Mary. Maybe this kid didn't get the special vessel gene. ((Although after The Kids are Alright rewatch, I really don't think he is Dean's.)) Like Bev said above though, I also don't understand the special bloodlines. Why was Dean perfect for Michael and Sam perfect for Lucifer. If Sam had never had the demon blood, would he not have worked for Lucifer but also been perfect for Michael?

I was also really surprised that Michael Shanks played such a small role. I kept expecting more screen time for him. I didn't get a vibe that he had a relationship with the bartender other than old friends who knew the bartender didn't believe the message that was being preached. I thought that was the thing that Michael Shanks character was protecting when there were any glances exchanged.