From earlier....

The only thing that we have to dispute that Ben isn't Dean's is Lisa's word.

**blinks**hmmm... And the only thing to say that Ben is his son is the word of oodles of fangirls. Lisa is his mother, I would think she'd know. Apparently in her self-proclaimed wild days she was in the habit of taking home strange men for weekends of sex, and she had a physical type, and Dean fit that type. Some might think that Lisa holds a special place amongst the throngs of women Dean's supposedly been with (even though we've been told before that Cassie was supposed to be his one brush with an actual almost-relationship) but there's nothing to say that he holds an equally high status in her memories. ("Best sex I ever had" for one weekend 10 years ago does not equal love of my life forever after I want him to be the father of my child and build a life with me.) Or as has been suggested, she might be in another relationship.

Also, since we've been beaten over the head with the "Winchester blood is so special" anvil, if Ben were a Winchester both the angels and the demons would have set up housekeeping across the street to watch his every move from the time he was born.

I have no idea who Michael Shanks is, or where he's from, so it didn't ping me.

Also, in addition to SG:1, he's Mr Lexa Doig. You know her from The End.

**blinks**hmmm

wow

And the only thing to say that Ben is his son is the word of oodles of fangirls.

The show made him look like Dean, talk like Dean, and bond with Dean. They named the character "son" in hebrew. They aligned the timeline so that it was possible. There was a reason that people started thinking that way. I haven't checked out twop or moved outside of my flist but I had the impression that the overall feeling of Ben being Dean's son was in opposition to the fangirls. I was reading a lot of outrage and problems and not one "woohoo, I knew it all along!" I read Mo Ryan's column where she makes some assumptions toward the show wanting us to believe Dean thought Ben was his son, but even that seemed neutral. The only way that Ben is going to be legitimately accepted tolerated as Dean's son is if the show produces the results of a test or a birth certificate.

However, I rewatched Ben in The Kids are Alright this afternoon and I didn't get any indication from Lisa's delivery that she wasn't telling the truth. From the way she told Dean that he was off the hook and didn't seem to be covering anything up or worried at any point in the conversation, I'd say she was telling the truth and really had a blood test. But Show did leave that open and we don't know there was a blood test done.

("Best sex I ever had" for one weekend 10 years ago does not equal love of me life forever after I want him to be the father of my child and build a life with me.)

I agree. I've never thought that Lisa was in love with Dean. Although I do think it's weird that she would discuss with neighbors/friends about a random weekend from ten years ago with enough detail that the name raises red flags when someone shows up.

if Ben were a Winchester both the angels and the demons would have set up housekeeping across the street to watch his every move from the time he was born.

Unless mixing with Lisa's blood offset the convergence of bloodlines of John and Mary. Maybe this kid didn't get the special vessel gene. ((Although after The Kids are Alright rewatch, I really don't think he is Dean's.)) Like Bev said above though, I also don't understand the special bloodlines. Why was Dean perfect for Michael and Sam perfect for Lucifer. If Sam had never had the demon blood, would he not have worked for Lucifer but also been perfect for Michael?

I was also really surprised that Michael Shanks played such a small role. I kept expecting more screen time for him. I didn't get a vibe that he had a relationship with the bartender other than old friends who knew the bartender didn't believe the message that was being preached. I thought that was the thing that Michael Shanks character was protecting when there were any glances exchanged.

Azazel was working to get Lilith killed and that seal opened from beyond his death. He's very big picture. What the tv trope guys are gonna call a Thanatos Gambit of incredible presumption. But did he plan for a Braeden?

The show made him look like Dean, talk like Dean, and bond with Dean.

Oh, I agree. It was done deliberately. It was all very cute, and we got to see Dean squirm, and then we got to watch him bond with the child and get all wistful, and we got to go "Awwww!" so I think the writers accomplished what they wanted. And it left a lot of strings to pull later if they wanted to. But the looking and talking like Dean parts can be explained away by Lisa saying she had a type -- presumably she slept with more than one guy with that physical appearance and those traits. By that point I know we'd noticed that Dean dealt especially well with kids in other episodes (such as Lucas in "Dead in the Water," and Michael in "Something Wicked") so we know he relates well to young boys. He interacted well with Ben. I think he would be an awesome Dad or a terrific stepfather (assuming he wasn't running off to chase supernatural things that were trying to kill him on a regular basis, that is), but for now I choose to accept Lisa's word on this.

we got to watch him bond with the child and get all wistful

I think that was the key, here. It's been mentioned before that family doesn't end with blood. I'm too fogged up on allergy meds to put this together coherently, but I think there's something going on with how people choose to play out/accept/abandon their 'assigned' family roles.

And on that note, the whole predisposed bloodline thing has not been explained to my satisfaction. "It always had to be you."

I want to see that subverted on the show so badly, you have you idea. I want to see Team Free Will break that bit of angelic dogma into a million bitty pieces.

I want to see Team Free Will break that bit of angelic dogma into a million bitty pieces.

More than anything, this.

What I don't get is, if Zachariah now knows that God has NOT "left the building", does he really not see Joshua's appearance as some kind of blatant cue that God is, at the very least, watching? If God's wrath is something to fear, wouldn't the fact that God seems to be paying attention, and to some extent is helping the boys, be a HUGE clue that perhaps some angels should be rethinking the Apocalypse?

I for one would like someone to ask Zachariah if he's considered the possibility that there might be personal consequences to inspiring seething hatred in people who, if his plan succeeds, will become vessels of the two most powerful incarnate beings in creation. If I were either of the Winchesters and decided to say yes I'd make his grisly end one of the conditions.

a HUGE clue that perhaps some angels should be rethinking the Apocalypse?

Maybe he was listening in on the sitting it out part.

I don't know if Zachariah is equipped to deal. I mean, if he has the faculties to do so. He's been so enamoured of taking the bludgeon to Dean, time after time, that it might not occur to him that a deal could be in the offing.

Michael, the smooth talker, on the other hand, seems more likely to go that way. But I'm not entirely clear who's talking to who up there. Still don't know how Anna got out, and on whose side she was acting.

Hey, spent today with my best SPN fan friend and we suddenly realized that the Michael Shanks character AND the preacher both had the Hunter-creation thing going on - is it possible that we will see them again?

By Hunter Creating thing - I mean when you lose somebody in bizarre circumstances to Supernatural creatures.