Right now, I think Dean telling his mother that John loved her and he loved her too. Because...damn. I thought it all started when John handed Sam to him. I thought that was what his need to protect family centred on. But no, he's been doing this longer, under his own steam, and the idea of going back to that moment figures heavily enough that it comes up in heavenly rotation. Protecting his mother, telling her he'd never leave her, is that important to him.

Sam now knows that Dean's been cleaning up after John for a longer while, and he knows too that Dean is just hardwired that way.

Maybe this can lift some of the burden of being Dean's lifelong responsibility from Sam, since not entirely all of Dean's family fucked-uped-ness issues are on his shoulders after all.

In fact, both brothers have been entirely subjective narrators the entire length of the show. Viewers and fans would do well to remember that fact when interpreting canon action we see unfold right before our eyes onscreen, in light of what we're told by canon characters.

This quote was in regards to people in fandom who persist in asserting that John drank heavily. But I'd like to suggest that it applies to other issues as well -- for instance, whenever I bring up the issue of John's lack of contact with the guys and how he never even called when Sam notified him that Dean was dying, someone inevitably will suggest that John told Caleb to call Sam about the faith healer. Which is an okay theory for a fanfic. but it never happened in canon.

Also, whenever Sam mentions John drinking - like last night's comment about John passed out on Thanksgiving - does Dean ever contradict him? Is there any reason to believe he didn't drink, perhaps heavily, even if he wasn't a raging alcoholic? Frankly, it would make perfect sense to me for hunters to drink given everything they deal with.

Count me as someone who wishes Pamela didn't mack on Dean, it just felt superfluous and left me feeling vaguely uncomfortable. I love Pamela, but I'm not sure what she added to the story, unless it was the further easing in of the idea that Dean will say yes to Michael. His consent is feeling a lot less like 'yes' and a lot more like 'why not'.

I felt the same way. I like her character but last night she was coming across with such a hard sell that I suspected that the whole setup was going to be an illusion created by Zacariah. And the macking was superfluous.

I haven't had a chance to rewatch the episode yet, and I'm really feeling the need. So much happened and little tributaries of thought lead off in directions all over the place. For instance, I'm surprised by how much the thought of young Sam running away for two weeks, an idea that would normally horrify me, actually makes me happy. It reinforces his fierce determination to get away on his own, his independence and self-reliance and ability to take care of himself, even if only for a short period of time. So often in the fandom I see young!Sam treated as though he's practically incapable of crossing the street without Dean carrying him on a silken pillow, so it's gratifying to see that he was capable.

Ash wouldn't be in any people's heavens that he had never met but was able to "trespass" briefly.

Then how would he know how good Einstein's White Russians were?

I see young!Sam treated as though he's practically incapable of crossing the street without Dean carrying him on a silken pillow

They were happy to ignore After School Special, I'm sure they'll find a way to work around this.

The idea of a bullheaded teenage Sam trying to escape and making it out for two weeks is interesting and I don't think surprisimg...the urge is perfect understandable in a fifteen or so year old, but the lack of empathy still to not have realised Dean would be hurt/catch hell for it? Not sensitive Sam's shining moment.

But he was feeling all over this one, almost from the start. Dean shut down/narrowed his focus pretty quickly. Sam spends so much time watching Dean in any shared scenes, but Dean's always looking away. Or, at the end, at Castiel.

And, to conclude, soulmates.

Oh, and Dean wasn't in the bed nearest the door.

the urge is perfect understandable in a fifteen or so year old, but the lack of empathy still to not have realised Dean would be hurt/catch hell for it? Not sensitive Sam's shining moment.

Oh God no. He would have had to know that Dean would be blamed for letting him slip away. Which means either he was angry enough/desperate enough not to care, or Sam was in that stubborn "you were his favorite golden child" frame of mind. I do wonder how young he was supposed to have been at that point. They left it kind of vague.

It's interesting to see everyone's comments. I watched the episode because I wanted to see Sam and Dean in heaven. I'm so far behind that I have no real idea of what's going on. But it was still heart wrenching to watch. Makes me want to get caught up I miss the show and Sam and Dean.

We miss you and your POV in discussion, too. Catch up! Come join us!

Two thoughts on rewatch:

Mean Mary's speech patterns sound a lot like Meg's.

Someone needs to remind Dean that the flip side of Pamela's argument is that if he says yes, so will Sam, and then Sammy will go to hell and DEAN NEEDS TO CARE.

Point. While I'm all caught up with the idea of Dean saying yes and Sam staying strong, then the angels don't get what they want, do they? But if Sam says yes and it plays into their plan, they need to let him back into heaven. Uh, if it's their call.

Gah. I wish I could rewatch more of S5 to prepare for the end of it. There are nitpicks I could be making, and just can't remember the details of.

Ash wouldn't be in any people's heavens that he had never met but was able to "trespass" briefly.

Then how would he know how good Einstein's White Russians were?

I was saying Einstein wasn't a memory. It wasn't a presumption to say that Ash would be in the real Einstein's heaven because Ash could go in and out of other people's heavens as he did with Sam and Dean. When he crashed Einstein's heaven or when Ash invited Einstein to "his Blue Heaven" must have been when he had a white russian.

Sam was in that stubborn "you were his favorite golden child" frame of mind.

I would think this had to be strong in Sam with no bad reflection on Sam's character. I thought I saw it when Dean was in Dean's memory with Mary and she couldn't see Sam. Sam was ready to go immediately and rushing Dean. There was a definite jealousy thing going on and why wouldn't there be? He said it later. He never had the crusts cut off of his PB&J. There absolutely HAD to be a great amount of anger toward Dean for this reason alone.

When he crashed Einstein's heaven or when Ash invited Einstein to "his Blue Heaven" must have been when he had a white russian.

I see. What I meant was that he was crashing Einstein's heaven though, and that's not fair to Einstein's afterlife.

Sam was ready to go immediately and rushing Dean

In fairness, Sam ditched his fairytale turkey-day the minute Dean showed up, and was decently fast out the door leaving Bones behind. But I don't think he'd yet worked out how much more broken Dean was than he was.