Despite the arguing right before Zacharia showed up, the minute he did, the boys were a team again. Working together is in their blood and happens without even thinking about it.

I so totally wanted that dog to be one of Jared's dogs.

I haven't rewatched yet. I kinda want to watch alone and it will be a while before I have the apartment to myself again.

I did have a couple of other thoughts re. the timing of the John-Mary fight. One, Sam was no doubt still an infant, so whatever blew up, it had to have been bad enough for John to leave not just his wife and four-year-old son, but his newborn son for a few days.

Summer dress, so figure Sam's a few months old, and the two kid stress + the YED for Mary (stuff bugging her she won't talk about) leads to John going AWOL. You should write that! So I can read it!

Wasn't Sam born in November? Or October? Or is that just when he was six months old?

Sam was born in May.

On the second of May. Like in that Placebo song that's been my Sam and Dean theme for ages. (The Bitter End. For the record)

"On November second 1983, don't get out of bed. No matter what you hear, or what you see. Promise me you won't get out of bed."

I count back six months from that. ::sniff::

I'm with Marcia and Anne on the severity and literality of the "beat-down" Dean took for Sam's running off (and just how did he afford that rathole of an efficiency? Or book into a motel without a car?). I don't think John ever physically abused either boy. Their love for him and fear of his disapproval were strong enough (Something Wicked) to qualify as a beat-down. Also, while I'm sure John did drink occasionally, a lot of people bought into the notion that he was a drunk, off Sam's complaints in S1. To the point that on rewatch of the season, they were surprised that not a single bottle or glass ever made an appearance in John's presence. The boys drank more than John was shown to. S1 Sam=unreliable narrator.

In fact, both brothers have been entirely subjective narrators the entire length of the show. Viewers and fans would do well to remember that fact when interpreting canon action we see unfold right before our eyes onscreen, in light of what we're told by canon characters.

I'm on the Marcia-and-Anne bench wrt John and Mary's relationship, and wee!Dean's infantile interpretation and recall of it. And I'll note my personal belief that Dean was actually three, not four-and-a-half, in his heaven-with-mom last night, because Sam wasn't even in either of their consciousnesses, and he would have been had he been there, even as an infant. Dean's Mom-related heaven was pre-Sammy, not Sam-excluded.

Or, on consideration, possibly What Plei Said re: infant Sammy. But only possibly.

TWOP: I get why people become polarized, I do. But that's not this show.

Also, for those who care, LA Con 2010 vids are up, thanks to some kind soul who was there. The JJ panel starts here.

And I'll note my personal belief that Dean was actually three, not four-and-a-half, in his heaven-with-mom last night, because Sam wasn't even in either of their consciousnesses, and he would have been had he been there, even as an infant. Dean's Mom-related heaven was pre-Sammy, not Sam-excluded

Mary mentioned two kids, not one, when talking to John.

Der. Which is why I considered What Plei Said. Thank you!

I don't see any reason to discount Sam or Dean's recounting of their father's use of hard liquor--certainly not because they (or at the very least Dean) drinks regularly and hard too (although by the empty distribution in the hotel room, they were definitely both partaking hard). I don't think that makes them unreliable--I don't see any reason I should ignore the idea that he drank while raising them.

I don't think it's at all surprising that he wasn't shown with alcohol in S1 either, not least of all because he was crazy mission man most of the time. I don't see how it erodes the point.

I also lend credence to the idea of Bobby drinking at least enough to get a rep as the town drunk. It's just going to be something I attach to hunters now. Drinking more than the mundanes. Drinking a lot more. And not just beer.

I know there are probably meta reasons for JDM not appearing in this episode, but I am willing to let it add to my perceived canon of John at least not as happy Dad. He is a lynchpin in Dean's life--even with any issues and realisations Dean may have made since John's death, I don't think he'll ever extricate him from that position, but if I'm going to lend weight to Dean not being in Sam's Heaven, I have to lend weight to John not being in either Heaven. He may have been what Dean's world revolved around, but the two mentions of him in-memory were notable for his absence.