But John. John, John, John. Drunk, arguing with wife, implied beating of son at unstated age. How far you've fallen since last we saw you, with the innocent eyes and grim determination.

I choose that John yelled at him, like we saw when the monster almost got Wee!Sam. They've never hinted at beatings or any other type of physical abuse and as quick as Sam is to remember the drinking, I can't think that wouldn't have come up before now. "When Dad got home" and the implied look from Dean to me meant words were exchanged such as "you were supposed to be looking out for him" which would have hurt Dean more than any slap. I haven't heard anything in canon to make me think John physically abused the boys.

I also think that John and Mary are together as soulmates which is why neither have been found. A two day cooling off period in a young marriage is very very mild. But it would have been traumatic from a childs POV. Not so much for Mary and John. I'm not saying it indeed was a perfect marriage and fully believe that it is more real in Dean's eyes now. However that little bit didn't destroy the picture that I had of John and Mary's love story. It just gave it depth and room for make up sex.

I think Theresa and I share the same brain wrt John and Mary. It felt less like an "I'm leaving" fight than a single blowing up to the point where one party had to get the hell out for whatever reason--either for fear of making things worse or needing time to deal.

I did have a couple of other thoughts re. the timing of the John-Mary fight. One, Sam was no doubt still an infant, so whatever blew up, it had to have been bad enough for John to leave not just his wife and four-year-old son, but his newborn son for a few days.

If Mary remembered the YED, then chances are, she'd have been getting very worried in early 1983. Weren't her parents killed in early May of that year? And Sammy born 10 years later to the day? I can imagine things getting VERY tense in that household, and I can also imagine scenarios where Mary's past might have come bubbling up.

The other thought that struck me about John and Mary is that they were together and seemed to be quite happy in the pilot. So, they were probably in the first flush of feeling like hey, maybe they were getting things right and settling some issues when... Or maybe things were still being patched up. Either way, ouch.

Going back to Sam and Dean, one thing I loved was how quickly Sam realized that his flashback to departure night was going to hurt Dean very badly, and how he tried to skip past the whole thing to spare Dean. I do think that Sam is in a much, much better headspace right now than either Dean OR Castiel--which is very much not what I would have expected going into this season. At the end, he came across as being very determined. Determined to fix things, maybe?

It did look like Castiel was hearing something after saying "I believed in--" Either that or it could have been an epiphany about the fact that he had to make his own decisions now. I am very interested to see where he goes from here.

So, so good to see Ash again. I'd bet cash money that he and Sam were using the Heavenly Police Scanner to try to track down Jo and Ellen.

I hesitate to use the words physical abuse, because I was hit as a child and I don't feel physically abused. But I understand it's a much more volatile issue in the US.

Does being put together by a Cupid mean you're a soulmate, or does it mean it doesn't matter? Their love story is already totally weirded out for me, and I hurt for Dean especially who was working to enshrine it.

I still feel the soulmate comment was for Sam and Dean, but it could apply to them too.

Not for nothing, but I think there has to be a way of moderating a forum that does not necessitate that kind of heavy handedness.

Has to be.

Having gotten a chance to read some of the posts before they've been deleted (because that's how far they go), I don't know if there's reasoning with the fans in question.

I read, because I am consuming Supernatural-related content willy nilly right now, but even with the moderation it's really clear that a fair number of posters would prefer the show to have only one brother on it. It radiates off the Dean and Sam threads, it radiates off the JA and JP threads, it's just wrapped up in the subtext of so much of the place. If they didn't mandate it, I can't imagine how much discussion volume it would consume, and how overtly ugly it would get, instead of the de facto tension that exists now.

When I call myself a DeanGirl here, it's really nothing. I would not pass their entrance examination.

I absolutely fail to get that one-sided way of looking at the show. It's like not looking at the show at all. I mean, how can you not hate the show we're getting?

Dean's rose-colored glasses were stripped away with not just Sam's but his own memories in Heaven. I'm struggling to understand what that means for him.

While Zachariah was messing with his head in the end, his own initial mom memory prompted his statement that things were not ideal in John/Mary-land.

I just hope out of this stripping away of illusions, will come the realization that despite everything Sam still loves him. Love is messy and complicated.

I think everyone has that defining moment when their parents fall off their pedestal. It's just especially brutal and coming very late for Dean.

ETA: Sorry this is sort off subject to TWOP, just still processing everything in my head.

it's really clear that a fair number of posters would prefer the show to have only one brother on it.

::boggles::

still processing everything in my head.

me too!

Despite the arguing right before Zacharia showed up, the minute he did, the boys were a team again. Working together is in their blood and happens without even thinking about it.

I so totally wanted that dog to be one of Jared's dogs.

I haven't rewatched yet. I kinda want to watch alone and it will be a while before I have the apartment to myself again.

I did have a couple of other thoughts re. the timing of the John-Mary fight. One, Sam was no doubt still an infant, so whatever blew up, it had to have been bad enough for John to leave not just his wife and four-year-old son, but his newborn son for a few days.

Summer dress, so figure Sam's a few months old, and the two kid stress + the YED for Mary (stuff bugging her she won't talk about) leads to John going AWOL. You should write that! So I can read it!

Wasn't Sam born in November? Or October? Or is that just when he was six months old?