Wasn't Castiel originally intended to appear in no more than 5 episodes

I seem to remember that, from Misha talking about his choice to speak so low for the character.

I loosely define recurring as "in more than one episode" which loops in Jake as well.

Then we need to at the very least add Ava. Or was she antagonistic in too few episodes?

The quick answer to your dilemma is to not have cast black guys in those roles, which I will always disagree with. Aldis was nothing special as Jake, but I make grabby hands at the other two. Because casting black guys in more major roles doesn't fix things, because they will die or menace people, while continuing to not be Bobby or Castiel.

The non-white people on Psych not named Shahi fail to stick in my head, but maybe it's because it's not really a show I find memorable. I can only remember the stuntier casting, and that's all white, except for Gus's family. And a priest, maybe?

Eureka has a diverse main cast, but when it comes to specifically casting relatives of non-white characters, they have problems. And when they decide to go local for open ethnicity roles, Colin says that's equivalent to going white.

Then we need to at the very least add Ava. Or was she antagonistic in too few episodes?

Too few. Like Victor's an ally in too few. Sadly. I mean, I'm not one to fuss too much over killing on this show. Ellen and Jo? Good deaths. So I, personally, would be peachykeenfine with a non-white human ally who eventually bites it as all their allies do. Some wouldn't, but, you know, doesn't make them right.

The quick answer to your dilemma is to not have cast black guys in those roles, which I will always disagree with. Aldis was nothing special as Jake, but I make grabby hands at the other two. Because casting black guys in more major roles doesn't fix things, because they will die or menace people, while continuing to not be Bobby or Castiel.

The apparent writer vision for Jake was for an all-American, Matt Damon type, so outside of the text, I think it's flipping AWESOME that they cast Aldis there.

But, to break the pattern, I suppose some more Damonish dude would have been better. (Actually, looking at some of the more explicit Dean parallels that they have with Jake, in speech patterns, being the one of the special kids who's the muscle, the caretaking part for his family, it might have been more *effective* to cast someone visually similar to Ackles there.)

I like the idea of, say, swapping Rufus with Bobby in terms of casting. Partly because, long before Rufus showed up on the scene, that was my dream casting for a non-white Bobby.

The non-white people on Psych not named Shahi fail to stick in my head, but maybe it's because it's not really a show I find memorable. I can only remember the stuntier casting, and that's all white, except for Gus's family. And a priest, maybe?

Sendhil Ramamurthy, Nicole Lyn (Hill's RL wife), Kerry Washington, just off the top of my head.

Sendhil Ramamurthy, Nicole Lyn (Hill's RL wife), Kerry Washington, just off the top of my head.

So big names, then, just not stunty enough (other than Sendhil) to capture my flighty Psych memory.

I like the idea of, say, swapping Rufus with Bobby in terms of casting

I love Jim Beaver, but Steven Williams would rock Bobby too.

So basically we got more Gordon because the actor did a good job, and Jake was envisioned white and cast black.

And if we'd had a black Bobby the crippling would have been racefail.

The big gap with black guys is intermediary characters...I think the tier-below-Bobby-and-Castiel is well populated and well acted.

And if we'd had a black Bobby the crippling would have been racefail.

In the same way that Jo and Ellen are considered genderfail by some. I mean, I wouldn't have, but there's no pleasing everyone.

And, yeah. Steven Williams as Bobby? Man. I'd have been over the moon, but that's a crush that dates back to the 80s.

You mean Ellen and Jo's deaths are considered genderfail by some?

I find it hard to see the meta in casting sometimes because if I respond to the character, if it feels natural and well-played, then that actor *is* that character for me.

I think Cassie was one that didn't work, but it didn't have to do with her race, just the fact that she didn't seem at all Dean's type. And the chemistry just wasn't there.

Ellen and Jo were as heroic as Mary and Deana. I know some people were upset by the Ellen and Jo dying but I was proud of them. All were kick ass women who were integral to the story. In my mind, this is Supernatural and everyone important dies. Or will in the next season and a half. Better to let them die doing something heroic.

I didn't dislike Cassie as much as others. I find the actress gorgeous and I thought she looked good with JA which was part of the point.

You mean Ellen and Jo's deaths are considered genderfail by some?

I saw a fair amount of outrage about that--it was part of what soured Consuela, if memory serves. But narratively, it made sense for me, and they went out swinging, and I get chills just thinking about it in enough detail to type about it again, which is a good death, in my books.

I just...I'm like Plei. I wouldn't have seen crippling Steven Williams' Bobby as racefail either, but I bet a fair amount of fandom would have.

But I'm on record as getting a lot of eyeroll out of fandom's race sensitivity. Maybe I'm not American enough to take umbrage, or something. It's a lack of comprehension I share with my sister. I'm so glad that compelling black characters show up, for god's sake. I'll howl when I think they are stereotypes, and SPN hasn't really set that off for me.

I lay the blame for Cassie squarely at the feet of casting and Megalyn Echikunwoke. I've never seen her not suck at anything. She was a gaping void, most notably, in The 4400.

She was a gaping void, most notably, in The 4400.

This is the only other place that I have seen her and in 4400 she was playing a rapidly aged woman/child so I thought lack of emoting was a little on purpose. As it's not on purpose, then that may be why I haven't seen her in more things.

She was also on CSI: Miami playing a perplexedly drug-addicted coroner. She has never made emotional sense to me in anything I've seen her do. If she were a model, I guess I'd think she were pretty, but she "acts" and it's just so flat.

I remember that conversation actually, but the way Plei phrased it, I wasn't sure. I am completely distracted today, though. And not with pretty angsty boys who fight demons, either, sadly.

I think I stopped watching The 4400 before she showed up, because people have mentioned her being on the show and I don't remember it at all.

For the record, I may have wish we'd gotten to see more of Ellen and Jo, but their characters as they were written, and as they died, were pure win for me. Abandon All Hope was the hardest this show has ever made me cry.