True, but I think that what we saw with Ellen and Jo was WAY the heck on the other side of that particular spectrum. It was heartbreaking. Absolutely heartbreaking, and for me, just underscored that for most hunter families, that is the way the world ends. Campbells, Winchesters, Harvelles...

This, especially.

I cried, but I found it unforgiveable. Jo and Ellen died for nothing. That's not agency. That's the storyteller fucking with them.

How is it nothing? Ultimately, yes, the Colt didn't work, but in my view, dying for nothing is a hell of a lot different than dying for the possibility of something (saving the world, in this case) and having it not work out. I get that the show doesn't have a hell of a lot of social capital with a lot of us when it comes to female characters, and hell, I'd accidentally found out that there would be at least A Death, and wow, that made me The Cranky for a while, but ultimately, all I've ever wanted of any show is for them to treat the female characters like competent adults in life or in death. You know, like they'd treat a male character.

Which, in this case, they did.

Supernatural's going to have a high body count, it just is at this point. I don't think anyone's going to make it out alive, frankly. I don't think Bobby will, I don't think Sam will, I don't think Dean will (I'd like for them to, but they probably won't).

Incidentally, I've got my pennies on 5x17 for Bobby Bites It. Anyone else?

One thing I don't like now that the show is more about the coming Apocalypse than cryptozoology along America's backroads is that everything is still set in the US. I wish there'd been at least a throwaway line from Lucifer at some point that his host has been a recluse since his wife died, so he figured he might as well set everything up close to home.

Also, why can't Castiel kill demons anymore? He destroyed or expelled several angels immediately after his resurrection, and that's been shown to be much more difficult to accomplish. It'd be nice if the changes to his bag of tricks had some sort of internal consistency.

I can't also help but think that the very fandom-savvy writers were more or less saying, "Have at it, Good Omens/Supernatural crossover ficcers!"

The opening shot of the highway interchange was totally an homage.

I dreamed that Bobby died too. He was impaled. It was bloody.

It'd be nice if the changes to his bag of tricks had some sort of internal consistency.

Well, at least he seems surprised by the inconsistency.

Fun Fact about Carthage, MO: It's home of the Precious Moments Inspirational Park.

Huh. I've been there.

You sent us photos from the place. Even more scary than some of your links.

Also, why can't Castiel kill demons anymore? He destroyed or expelled several angels immediately after his resurrection, and that's been shown to be much more difficult to accomplish. It'd be nice if the changes to his bag of tricks had some sort of internal consistency.

I thought they were deteriorating progressively the longer he was out of Heaven. He was clearly surprised he couldn't off the demon, and in The End, Future Castiel mentioned that he had pretty much lost all of his powers by that point.

I think the show kills near everybody. The choice has been made not to hire women as semi-regulars, so their paucity is more noted, but the Winchesters are regularly shriven of associates and comrades. It's their mark.

Exactly. And, in terms of meta-issues with SPN and how it deals with women: yes, it annoys me too. But, it is also very apparent to me (and especially after last week's episode) that the creators are fans of media that is traditionally problematic. They're gaming, horror, and comics geeks. (Trust me, last week's LARPing convention was FAR TOO ACCURATE for mere passing Google research.) And they haven't stopped to really examine or think about some of the recurring issues that are present in those types of media.

Yes, they could and should be better about the show's treatment of women. But I'm not terribly surprised that they aren't. I think that writing Jo and Ellen's deaths as a choice they made was a step forward in terms of how the show views female characters.

I agree that no one is going to escape unscathed from this season's arc. I've resigned myself to Bobby's death, I've somewhat resigned myself to Castiel's death. I don't think both of the Winchester boys are going to make it out alive, either.

Maybe NEITHER boy will make it out alive. Heck, it would not be false to the horror genre for the last episode to kill off everyone on this planet as Lucifer triumphs. Lucifer kills off all the demons, God shows up and kills off all the angels (including Lucifer and other fallen angels). Then emo God looks around, says to himself "its going to be very lonely". Long pause. "Well" . Longer pause . shrug. "Let there be light".

I don't think both of the Winchester boys are going to make it out alive, either.

They've already died individually anyway. Killing them both is the only way to keep 'em dead.

I know Sam and Dean are very aware of the short lifespans in their profession, but I'm not convinced Kripke would actually kill off the main characters in the series finale. I mean, you can kill off main characters in your series finale, but not THE main characters.

I do wish we knew for sure that there won't be a sixth season. I keep hearing waffling. If it's going to be a season finale, killing off the Winchesters seems less likely, since they'd just have to be brought back, and we've been through that already.

Yes, they could and should be better about the show's treatment of women. But I'm not terribly surprised that they aren't. I think that writing Jo and Ellen's deaths as a choice they made was a step forward in terms of how the show views female characters.

Totally. Frankly, they did a better job here than Joss Whedon ever did in killing off his female characters.