Admittedly I've spent way too little time in male locker rooms, but don't they all have a lot of shirtless guys?

But the conversation wasn't about who was gayer--it was about who would shy away from engaging in gay nods to the audience, and Jeff Davis hasn't done that--he's just been writing his "no issue Beacon Hills" which involves angst free gay clubs and drag queens. That had nothing to do with his relationship to the fans, because that only came about after the season was already filmed.

Do you not see a difference between gay content and hoyay?

You mean Davis is just writing his show the way he envisions the world he created, but SPN writers are winking at viewers with the "Dick" jokes and all that, right?

I think the degree of winking is okay--ditching Jo and Bela is not. Expecting that yelling Sterek enough times at Davis is supposed to change plotlines--good lord.

But the response to that was "Teen Wolf isn't afraid of its fans who like the gay, unlike Buffy/Angel and Supernatural."

Ah, fuck you, lady. You talk like you've been around the fandom block. You talk like you're not stupid, so why are you saying stupid things. Did anyone watching Angel miss that he slept with Spike? And you don't have to ship D/C to be able to tell the writers know people do, and are willing to drop a bit of fanservice here are there--but I don't want the plot to bend for my ship. I want the plot to bend for better narrative.

Do you not see a difference between gay content and hoyay?

I do, but to me the gay content is Danny downtrodden about his ex or the guys dancing with each other at the club; the hoyay is Derek allowing himself to be leered at to get computer work done, or Jackson telling Danny he's everyone's type, that sort of thing. The presence of actual gay characters doesn't negate subtext also going on with characters who are nominally straight. I see plenty of the latter, just not between Stiles and Derek.

I guess I see "I'm everyone's type" as text and not subtext. An explicit and consistent character trait, as well. And having nothing at all to do with pandering to the audience either.

The leering...I guess I think that could just as well have been a straight guy ogling a girl, but then there might have been a power dynamic that makes it skeevy, but again--not subtext either. It's a gay guy, ogling a hot guy with no shirt on. Makes the world go round, ogling of shirtless buff men does.

I'm torturing myself by reading a beautifully written fic that clearly said "Character Death", so I've been crying nonstop for the final five chapters.

TNT showed the pilot today. Of course I recorded it to watch. I own it on dvd, yeah. But it was ON.

In part, my dvd player died and so it's not a simple thing to pop in a dvd. But I ripped all of season one to my laptop and could pop that to my tv easily.

God, that fight scene intro. I'm watching it twice. At least.

Don't you think you should avoid tagging this story so it shows up in the D/C listing in AO3?

Sam's wife Jess dies in a tragic accident, leaving him and their autistic daughter Leigh heartbroken. After living with Sam's brother for a year, Sam decides to get a fresh start in his life and start moving on from the terrible loss. He moves into an apartment in the heart of the city that only has one real blessing about it: the bakery across the street. The coffee there is the best Sam's ever tasted and the pastries are absolutely to die for. Best of all, it's owned by two brothers, Gabriel and Castiel Novak, and Leigh is immediately smitten with them. The brothers are equally taken by her and they soon become Sam's closest friends. They help him raise Leigh and, at the same time, get his life back on track. Along the way, Sam finds himself drawn particularly to Gabriel, who's crude, loud, obnoxious, and nothing like what he's usually attracted to.

There should be a "but not in an important way" disclaimer tag.

Don't you think you should avoid tagging this story so it shows up in the D/C listing in AO3?

Not necessarily. If it's a key (even if small) part of the story, the author can tag. Some people use tags to avoid pairings they can't stand in any way. I've seen authors get chewed out for not tagging an incidental pairing.

That said, yeah, it would have been nice if the author said "background D/C" in the tags.

I'm actually curious to see how much D/C there is in a story where she seems to so markedly shy away from using Dean's name in the summary. I mean, not referring to events in his life is fine--it's a Sam story. But when you write a summary that means the story could be Adam...well, shit, there's no brother of Sam/anyone pairing important enough for the summary--there should be a way to keep if from distracting the people who are looking for stories with enough D/C in them to trip a detector.