So Ruby was Lucifer's ringer and Anna is God's? Interesting.

What I'm wondering is did Lilith know back when she loosed her hounds on Dean and tried to kill Sam that she knew she had to die to break the final seal, and that Sam would be instrumental in that? If, at that point, she didn't, what stopped her from killing Sam? Lucifer?

And also, did she know even at the end, that her death would break the final seal? I know Ruby said she had all the other demons fooled as to her true loyalty, but was Lilith involved in that circle of information?

You mean JP, yes?

Yes...I'll be over in the corner with God.

Angels aren't supposed to have freewill...or maybe I have imagined that as a oft used reason for their jealousy of man.

However, our Angels of this universe do have free will. Lucifer did something to make God mad enough to lock him up. So like Matt said, that makes free will precedent. Then Anna chose to fall. Made the decision and carried it through so these angels totally have free will.

If Prophecy is being carried out there is no reason for God to be in the building. Things are or were on autopilot. His vacation may have been on his calendar all along. Free willing Zach may have taken advantage of that to xerox pictures of his butt, but there is going to Heaven to pay when the Boss gets back.

Juliebird, I think Lilith did know at the end that her death was the final seal, and that's why she recruited Ruby to prep Sam for the job.

As to when she knew this, that's a good question. It's possible she didn't know back at the end of S3, although her takeover of Ruby's body and Ruby's suspiciously quick release from Hell suggest they were probably in cahoots in the matter at that time.

My suspicion is that Lilith was broken free when Jake opened the hellgate in Wyoming. In other words, Azazel's plan had more than one deliverable. He not only had to prep someone to kill Lilith, he had to break Lilith free. I'm also guessing that one reason he made the deal for Dean's life so readily was that he expected John to break and be the one to break the first seal.

When John got out before he was broken, Lilith would have then snapped up Dean's contract.

I'm honestly not taking Dean's promise to Castiel to sreve god and his angels as anything more than any other promise. He gave his word, but it doesn't mean it can't be broken. Jimmy did the same, right? And when Castiel decided to use him as a vessel, he got called.

I'm just not sure he's *bound* in some way. This is supposed to be heaven/God we're talking about here, not blood oaths and rituals.

As to when she knew this, that's a good question.

I'm handwaving it this way: Lilith was pretty determined to kill Sam and Dean during S3. But when Dean went down, and she tried to kill Sam, we got the white light and her flipping out and fleeing.

I thought then something in Sam's demon blood was preventing her from killing him, but *now* I think she might have gotten some kind of demonic IM from Lucifer, along the lines of, "Hold up there, hell bitch, I need him, so back. off."

I'm just not sure he's *bound* in some way. This is supposed to be heaven/God we're talking about here, not blood oaths and rituals.

But this universe seems to owe a lot to Hoodoo and to Kabbalah. (Not due to research, more due to literary DNA). So angels can be summoned like demon. You draw circles that keep angels out the way you draw circles that keep demons out. And so on. I'm guessing that in the Supernaturalverse swearing an oath to an an angel binds you, not in the sense that you cannot break your oath, but in the sense that breaking your oath weakens you and has serious consequences. Normally I talk about how I'd like the story to go rather than making predictions. In this case I'll make two predictions. Dean was bound in some sense by his oath. Breaking it has consequences. But those consequences will be mitigated or turned back against those who try to bring them about because it turns out he was serving God, which is the more important part of his oath.

I thought then something in Sam's demon blood was preventing her from killing him, but *now* I think she might have gotten some kind of demonic IM from Lucifer, along the lines of, "Hold up there, hell bitch, I need him, so back. off."

We've seen the big white flash of overexposed grainy film on two other occasions - when Lilith wiped out the police station in "Jus in Bello" and in the process of Lucifer's release at the end of the latest episode. So it could go either way, that scene with Sam could have been just for show, giving him a reason to develop his demony powers (likely granted by her in the first place) or it could have been Lucifer intervening. But given how difficult it was to even open communication with him in the flashback to St. Mary's, my money would be on the former.

My thought (having successfully watched the ep piecemeal via Youtube, yay) is that Lilith knew all along that she was a sacrifice, and that she hasn't genuinely been trying to kill Sam or Dean - she's been trying to build up enough of a sense of hatred in Sam to goad him into making "Kill Lilith" his number one priority, over and above everything else. But my interpretation may be contradicted by canonical details that escape me just now?

Further thoughts on the finale - oh, Show. I wish that the nurse had been a guy. I mean, I'm delighted that Cindy got a shout-out, and I do understand the Horror movie shorthand of 'killing women is OMG even more awful than killing men! Look! Look how horrifying this is! Vulnerable woman in jeopardy!' ...but, fuck, enough already. It would still have been horrifying if the nurse were a guy, and it would have evened up the gender balance a little, and squicked me less.

sighs

Oh, but I did love an awful lot of things about the episode. I loved the awful, tacky 'swanky' suite they stuck Dean in, with cheeseburgers and beers and suchlike, and Zac's offer of sluts and virgins and Ginger from Gilligan's Island. Such an offensively poor grasp of Dean's psyche, to think he can be distracted from worrying about Sam by cheeseburgers on a gilded platter.

I liked that little moment where Dean pushed the pristine little angel and made it fall and shatter, just before he, er, pushed the dishevelled and hang-dog little angel and made him fall and shatter.

I'm unspeakably glad that the boys were reconciled in the finale, rather than going for a duel-to-the-death type thing.

eta

Also, I wouldn't be at all surprised to find Dean being possessed by Michael in the next season, and Sam by Lucifer. I'd really rather like to see Ackles playing somebody else, (JP's done it already, and it was great fun, but I'd happily watch him do it again with someone else) so that's a rather fabulous idea - on the other hand, for the narrative, I don't really want Sam or Dean to lose their autonomy and just be meat suits.

Amusing interview with Misha Collins.

Buffistas, it's become entirely all too clear to me that we need to engage Misha Collins in a group marriage. I don't need to be first or last, but I need to be in on it.

So God's sitting in the corner with a big glass of scotch, facepalming.

Which really, has to be how (the non-TV) He spends most of his time.

I did find it interesting that the Angels manipulated Dean so poorly and hamhandedly compared with Ruby's work on Sam. I mean, seriously: the man went to hell to bring his brother back to life, and you're offering him cheeseburgers and prostitutes? WTF? They really didn't make any effort to understand him, and I suspect that's related to the fact that they're in a position of power, and Ruby really wasn't. She knew she had no backup, and she had to work on Sam very carefully.

Sheesh, Consuela. You have the spiciest brains. Yes. Yes. A thousand times, yes!

That's my take on it. I can easily see Zachariah conflating God no longer communicating with him (assuming he's one of the four that have been in contact in the past) with being absentee on a larger scale. But I'd think that Anna regaining her angelic nature, Lucifer remaining bound until freed in the prophecied way, and the fact that things like holy water work at all are indications that He's still at work behind the scenes.

Right, Matt. I mean, Anna's not dead yet. I suspect she's been doing everything right by not coloring inside the lines. It depends on what Kripke wants SPN-God to be, of course, and if he's working an angle, this is all for nothing, but as it stands, I would think her Daddy is pleased with everything she's done -- right down to giving that childless couple a baby, by cutting out her grace kidney, or whatever.

So Ruby was Lucifer's ringer and Anna is God's? Interesting.

I'm thinking -- yeah. Although I'm also thinking Anna had no earthly idea, whereas Ruby clearly did.

Normally I talk about how I'd like the story to go rather than making predictions. In this case I'll make two predictions. Dean was bound in some sense by his oath. Breaking it has consequences. But those consequences will be mitigated or turned back against those who try to bring them about because it turns out he was serving God, which is the more important part of his oath.

If this were a Jossverse show, I'd agree with you, but as much as I love this show like chocolate, I'm not sure I've seen that kind of follow-through, Gar.

Also, I wouldn't be at all surprised to find Dean being possessed by Michael in the next season, and Sam by Lucifer. I'd really rather like to see Ackles playing somebody else, (JP's done it already, and it was great fun, but I'd happily watch him do it again with someone else) so that's a rather fabulous idea - on the other hand, for the narrative, I don't really want Sam or Dean to lose their autonomy and just be meat suits.

This...concerns me, too. I know Sera Gamble has liked to connect the dots between Dean and Michael, but I want Dean to stay Dean and Sam to stay Sam. If they are guided by angels/demons, that's fine with me. But as this might possibly be our last season with our boys, I want them to be them.