Xander ,'Same Time, Same Place'
[NAFDA]. This is where we talk about the CW series Supernatural! Anything that's aired in the US on TV (including promos) is fair game. No spoilers though — if you post one by accident, an admin will delete it.
Okay, quick questions about Dark Side Of The Moon:
Now, for me, I thought no, yes, yes, weirdo, maybe not, yes. And apart from Pamela, I'm surprised there's even a question.
You guys?
These are quick?
This episode drives me nuts, because there are so many great moments and revelations in it, but it doesn't make a lot of sense. At minimum the writers didn't seem to establish the rules of how heaven works, at least so I could understand them.
If Ash's heaven is the roadhouse, for example, is that his ... home? We know he can travel, but I assume not everyone can. So is Pamela really at a show at the Meadowlands on a daily basis, unless Ash picks her up to visit?
Given what Ash explained, it didn't make sense to me that the boys wound up together, unless they are in fact soul mates. But I also didn't get the journey part of their time in heaven, outside of it being necessary for plot purposes.
My hope is that Heaven isn't actually a lonely greatest hits holodeck experience for everyone forever; that what we saw is just an initial stage (kind of like Robin Williams' experiences in What Dreams May Come) until they're ready to interact with others who've been there longer.
If Ash's heaven is the roadhouse, for example, is that his ... home?
Well, it was where he lived on Earth, so that makes sense to me.
until they're ready to interact with others who've been there longer.
But Ash said explicitly that people don't interact with others unless you do the Enochian magic or they're soulmates. So do you think he was wrong or lying?
Why would Ash lie, though?
There was no one at the roadhouse with him, but we saw him bring Pamela there. I guess my question is, are you always alone in heaven? Because that's sort of horrible.
And how does that explain Sam at Thanksgiving with his little girlfriend's family? Where they landed seems more like a dreamscape (or memoryscape) than heaven, at least the way I've usually heard it described. And I certainly wouldn't want to be alone.
The problem for me is that they needed Ash there to explain how it worked, and how to get to Jacob, but having him there screwed with the logic of the rest of what we saw.
Ash would lie if Ash was somehow's Zach's angle. Either on his side or fake Ash created by Zach like fake Mary was.
And how does that explain Sam at Thanksgiving with his little girlfriend's family?
How do you mean? How is that different from Dean with fake Sam or fake Mary?
Since Ash said that everyone had their own heavens, if his word is to be trusted, yeah, you're alone.
but having him there screwed with the logic of the rest of what we saw.
How? I thought he explained himself sufficiently.
Did Ash wake up in the roadhouse, or did he wander through his memories the way Sam and Dean did? Did he choose to make the roadhouse his home?
And if he's not lying, and you're alone (unless you have his skills to find other people), then Sam and Dean *were* only walking through memories. And that's not what Ash is doing in the roadhouse.
Pamela's remark about one long show at the Meadowlands could just be a metaphor, since we don't actually see her heaven, but in Kama Sutra guy's, there were clearly other people around if Ash was part of hot, sweaty orgies there.
It seems a) like contradictory information, and b) confusing, which is not what most people imagine heaven to be. A sub station isn't unusual, before you reach your ultimate destination (I'm thinking more of the limbo in Heaven Can Wait here than anything else), but to wake up in heaven without any idea where you are seems a little cruel.
Zachariah was clearly able to fuck with them, since he did in the memory with Mary at the end, but since he was, why wasn't he able to from the beginning?
Like I said, I loved a lot of the moments and revelations, but the episode, or at least its concept of heaven, never made sense to me. And the reason it really bugged was because I had an idea for a fic set in heaven, and I haven't been able to figure out how to make it work according to canon, since I can't decide what canon is.
Did he choose to make the roadhouse his home?
I'm guessing Ash hangs out wherever he wants to, because he has total freedom of movement. So even if he was being cycled through locations for his greatest hits, he could choose to stay where he wanted to. Pamela's cycle seemed to be happening in one place, different events, unlike Sam and Dean who were being bumped from place to place but still within boundaries of their own shared pocket heaven.
in Kama Sutra guy's, there were clearly other people around if Ash was part of hot, sweaty orgies there.
I'd assume there were other people there in the same way young Sam was there in Dean's--not real people, just simulacra. And Ash. Which is incredibly creepy.
to wake up in heaven without any idea where you are seems a little cruel.
I don't remember--did Dean get confused before Castiel reached out to him? Because I'd imagined you'd just get run through your favourite memories and you'd never have to worry about where you were because you wouldn't have enough awareness to care.
Which is pretty cold and horrific, but you'd never know the difference.
I don't remember--did Dean get confused before Castiel reached out to him? Because I'd imagined you'd just get run through your favourite memories and you'd never have to worry about where you were because you wouldn't have enough awareness to care.
Maybe that's all it is? He didn't seem confused after young Sam showed up, but he did seem surprised that Sam was a kid again.
For purposes of the story, though, they needed to make that clear, or the audience would have been confused.
My hope is that Heaven isn't actually a lonely greatest hits holodeck experience for everyone forever; that what we saw is just an initial stage (kind of like Robin Williams' experiences in What Dreams May Come) until they're ready to interact with others who've been there longer.
We can hope, but it fits with the intense darkness of the Supernaturalverse. Also fits with a place that may have been created by God, but is run by Angels who A)don't get humans B) don't like humans.
BTW - can't help but wonder if "Eve" will end up creating monsters from those human souls Death was worrying about. That would leave only Gods, Angels, and Horsemen as not orginally human. If in season 7 it turns out that Gods and Angels are jumped up ghosts as well, we can just assume that the Horsemen are, and that it is ghosts all the way down.