I can see two sets of reasons why Dean should not play house with Lisa and Ben.

1) While they will always be at risk just for having know him (something might come for them just to hurt Dean), if Dean keeps up the relationship there is the additional danger of Dean coming home one day changed. Or something coming home that looks like Dean that isn't. The first category includes Dean getting vamped, possessed, turned into a werewolf or skin changer. The second include shifters and ghouls.

2) Dean's model for fathering is Drill Sargent. He hits Sam on occasion. He might not hit Ben or Lisa (though that is always a possibility - even when not fighting off vamp blood to keep from eating Ben) but as we saw at the beginning he can go drill Sargent on their ass in a way that is not good for them. Plus he drinks too much. I don't think he is right about the exact ways he will be bad for Ben and Lisa if he sticks around, but he will be bad emotionally for them.

I don't think he is right about the exact ways he will be bad for Ben and Lisa if he sticks around, but he will be bad emotionally for them.

This is kind of what I have in my head.

He hits Sam on occasion. He might not hit Ben or Lisa (though that is always a possibility - even when not fighting off vamp blood to keep from eating Ben) but as we saw at the beginning he can go drill Sargent on their ass in a way that is not good for them.

I can't believe I didn't pick up on this. Dean already was the man he didn't want to be because of what he had done to Sam. I was just looking at it as brothers who were physically fighting, but Dean was the semi-parent so hitting takes on a more serious psychological consequence. Hmm.

The following is just me filling in my own blanks but it would make sense keeping in mind that he had hit Sam, that he would be afraid to be a "father." Dean doesn't deserve the self-loathing that he does but I see even more why maybe (even subconsciously) he would run from being a parent.

Did that change of position happen because Dean was turned into a vampire and brought that home where he shoved and endangered Ben? Because nothing else changed for Lisa to have a different stance on Dean's profession and her ability to live with it.

I think that would probably be a big, big part of it. I would also think that Dean's not answering his phone/calling her would have kicked the process along further.

Overall, I really like how the show handled Lisa and Dean. It's messy, it's painful, there's no neat solution, and both of them are acting like grownups (mostly). It hurts, but they're doing what they can to move on.

Poor Ben, though. While Dean and Lisa acted like grownups, I thought he was appropriately childish. My parents split when I was around that age and yeah, manipulation, emotional blackmail and wondering if things would have been different if I had done more... Let's just say I thought Ben was handled believably as well.

I suspect Sam refused pain meds because he had his own problem with substance abuse. I couldn't blame him if he didn't want to become physically or psychically dependent on another substance. Dean seems to be able to manage his alcohol dependency well, but I don't think Sam trusts himself to manage substance use/abuse quite as well.

I don't think Sam's the same person as he was in Wishful Thinking either. At that time he had a mission to kill Lilith, and he made some bold statements based in anger and revenge and hopped up on demon blood. I can't imagine Sam didn't pull a few lessons from what his own arrogance and revenge-driven behaviors cost him and his brother.

I don't think he thinks he will ever live a normal "safe" life again either, but he's not who he was in season 4. He's grown up and learned some very harsh lessons in the process.

but wasn't it Ben that whole time that was calling Dean? Lisa made her clean break in YCHtT. She didn't reach out to him after. That was all Ben on Lisa's cell. ???

Lisa said she called Dean six times. I got the impression that only the ones that we saw over the span of a day or so in this last ep was Ben.

She hadn't made a clean break. She had reached out to Dean and he didn't answer the phone. I thought that was part of why Dean said he had a hurt kid and a pissed off woman. Because he had left but avoided dealing with it.

Dean seems to be able to manage his alcohol dependency well, but I don't think Sam trusts himself to manage substance use/abuse quite as well.

He abuses alcohol though. Not as "masterfully" as Dean does, but he's sought solace in the bottom of a bottle of Jack as late as last season.

As for Sam setting an example of getting out--I think the mere fact that he couldn't erases it. He's back, and he's more back than Dean ever was.

At the same time as I think Dean had a huge role in raising Sam, I think tying his physical confrontations with him to any shade of parental corporal abuse is doing him ill. They have a pretty clear sibling push-and-shove relationship going on as of the start of the series. There's been no indication that violence between them is anything that was used in a disciplinary fashion. Even though I follow the implication that John may have hit at least Dean, I think if Dean hit Sam it was a brother thing, and not a parental figure thing. I also think fandom gives Dean a bigger parental role than the script does, because it's so appealing.

And I don't think there's any indication he in his right mind would ever hit Ben, or even raise him like his father raised him. We saw him yell at Ben once, and that was a clear fear of doing John-like things. It wasn't drill sargeant-ish at the least. The closest he got to reliving that pattern was moving around with brusque explanations, and that was just one move. I don't think *we* or the Braedens had anything to fear there, although Dean might not see it that way.

Lisa made her clean break in YCHtT. She didn't reach out to him after

Lisa's implication was that her calls were after the breakup, but she did state she called him.

thanks, I'm still not tracking things clearly yet.

I can't believe Dean ever hit Sam in real anger, or even in a disciplinary way, when he was a kid. I can't remember him even hitting Sam in anger during the show until maybe S2, although I'd have to go back and check.

I don't think Dean would ever have hit Lisa or Ben, and I think if Lisa knew what was happening to Dean in the vampire episode, she would have understand he shoved Ben for his own safety. The reasons for them not working are a lot more complex and emotional than that.

I'm not 100% sure Dean would never hit Ben in his right mind. But, regardless, I'd bet *Dean* is not 100% sure he'd never hit Ben while in his right mind.