getting a little squicked and moving on.

Thanks, Laga, that's a good attitude to have. I'm working on it.

I understand, Amy. I realize I'm the odd man out. Still working on the attitude. Sorry again for squee-harshing. Please, as you were.

If a crossroads demon can take Sam (or Samuel) back out of Heaven, Lucifer can probably do it.

Thing is, I have no idea if Sam had actually made it that far before he was raised from the dead (the first time). He may have been hanging around in Tricia Helfer Land for a while. And I'm dubious about Samuel having made it at all in light of his behavior since his return... I'm definitely not getting an enlightened spent-30-years-in-Heaven-and-know Mary's-in-a-better-place vibe off him. (Also, do we know for sure what brought him back? He voiced a belief that it was the same thing that restored Sam, but I didn't think we had actual confirmation on that.)

I don't think we did either.

It would be interesting if civil war in Heaven and general chaos in Hell means that random dead people are coming back to life and you know, things are all out of whack.

(Also, do we know for sure what brought him back? He voiced a belief that it was the same thing that restored Sam, but I didn't think we had actual confirmation on that.)

I thought Crowley brought them both back. He said so, didn't he?

Why should we believe what Crowley said?

I like that idea, but Samuel isn't very random. I'm pretty sure he was brought back for a specific purpose.

It would be interesting if civil war in Heaven and general chaos in Hell means that random dead people are coming back to life and you know, things are all out of whack.

I've wondered how (post) apocalyptic things seem to civilians during this season and last. We know that there was a lot of weird/bad shit going on last season, and that the monsters and evil things are changing the rules this season (hunting out of their territory, not being afraid of hunters, etc), but we haven't really seen civilian reaction to it, other than the town which was possessed by the Whore of Babylon.

Why would he lie about that? Samuel was doing exactly what Crowley said -- hunting alphas for him, which he wanted to question about purgatory.

And if someone/thing else brought him back, where'd they go? You don't bring someone back from death and just drop him off on earth -- you'd bring him back for a reason, as Castiel did with Dean.

Yeah, Crowley's claim is pretty straightforward.

I've read and written Wincest. But I don't discuss it here because it's a cultural taboo for a lot of people, and it's never been part of thread culture. I assume other people don't for that reason, or because they read it and don't necessarily want to admit it or talk about it, which is also fine.

Amy, I'm one of those people who read wincest but doesn't discuss it here. Mostly because I've always received the impression that the topic was most unwelcome here. Although I must admit there have been times, particularly during recent BigBangs and the many, many posts about Dean/Castiel stories that I was tempted to start posting recs for Sam/Dean stories with equal abandon. I know that there are others out there who read it, and those who don't can scroll past, just as I scroll past the Dean/Castiel.

the show has illustrated more than once that angels are sexual creatures, anyway.

I'm remembering Gabriel and Balthazar as the angels who had sex, yes? (Anna was human when she was with Dean. Although she said the desire for sex is one of the reasons she chose to fall, to no longer be an angel.) So as far as I can interpret their behavior, their engaging in sex is part of their rebellion, and is part of their acting out and doing things they know are wrong and un-angelic.