Considering The Show doesn't even recoginze the Wincest taboo I'm not sure if anybody should feel compelled to avoid talking about it in this thread. That said, as it's (still, so far) not my beautiful cake, I do appreciate the pussy-footing around the subject.

imo, we should all feel free to bring up anything Winchester related in this thread but it's also OK to make the occasional squicky noise. Speaking for myself, I'm fine with getting a little squicked and moving on.

getting a little squicked and moving on.

Thanks, Laga, that's a good attitude to have. I'm working on it.

I understand, Amy. I realize I'm the odd man out. Still working on the attitude. Sorry again for squee-harshing. Please, as you were.

If a crossroads demon can take Sam (or Samuel) back out of Heaven, Lucifer can probably do it.

Thing is, I have no idea if Sam had actually made it that far before he was raised from the dead (the first time). He may have been hanging around in Tricia Helfer Land for a while. And I'm dubious about Samuel having made it at all in light of his behavior since his return... I'm definitely not getting an enlightened spent-30-years-in-Heaven-and-know Mary's-in-a-better-place vibe off him. (Also, do we know for sure what brought him back? He voiced a belief that it was the same thing that restored Sam, but I didn't think we had actual confirmation on that.)

I don't think we did either.

It would be interesting if civil war in Heaven and general chaos in Hell means that random dead people are coming back to life and you know, things are all out of whack.

(Also, do we know for sure what brought him back? He voiced a belief that it was the same thing that restored Sam, but I didn't think we had actual confirmation on that.)

I thought Crowley brought them both back. He said so, didn't he?

Why should we believe what Crowley said?

I like that idea, but Samuel isn't very random. I'm pretty sure he was brought back for a specific purpose.

It would be interesting if civil war in Heaven and general chaos in Hell means that random dead people are coming back to life and you know, things are all out of whack.

I've wondered how (post) apocalyptic things seem to civilians during this season and last. We know that there was a lot of weird/bad shit going on last season, and that the monsters and evil things are changing the rules this season (hunting out of their territory, not being afraid of hunters, etc), but we haven't really seen civilian reaction to it, other than the town which was possessed by the Whore of Babylon.

Why would he lie about that? Samuel was doing exactly what Crowley said -- hunting alphas for him, which he wanted to question about purgatory.

And if someone/thing else brought him back, where'd they go? You don't bring someone back from death and just drop him off on earth -- you'd bring him back for a reason, as Castiel did with Dean.

Yeah, Crowley's claim is pretty straightforward.