She did the same thing Tricia Helfer did which was very pretty and it was stated then they didn't know where she was going.

And it's apparently not just between up or down...have we seen any departing souls we know are going to hell?

I thought the last we saw of Mary was her catching on fire, which, in the way of ghosts, ended her earthly tenancy, but doesn't specify her destination.

So, Christian went down in a blaze of non-descriptiveness. Will we see Gwen again? This season feels a bit busy with all the different characters and non-aligning agendas. Will she be dropped like a bad habit, or incorporated into Neo-Team-Free-Will? Or as a vengeful agent against Dean and Sam? Or against Sampa?

and it was stated then they didn't know where she was going.

Was that ep before we knew there was an actual Heaven in this 'verse? My vague recollection is that we knew there was evil and Hell for a long time before we knew there were angels (and even an ep where the "angel" was just a spirit that hadn't moved on where they talked about it) and Heaven.

I'm actually going to back off on talking about what I am not liking because I really don't want to be That Person here. I am not feeling the squee, I miss the squee but I am really more sure than anything that I don't want to harsh other people's. I totally still plan on being part of the conversations but I have to accept I am not happily fannish about this show and see if that brings some of the enjoyment back for me.

Samuel had a daughter, it was his job to keep her as safe as he could within the live they lead, and when he failed, it was his body that set the events that doomed her in motion, even if he wasn't the one in control.

I've seen this speculation that Samuel feels some sort of guilt that it was the YED riding his body when Mary made her deal that is causing all his big guilt and driving his actions right now. But.... Mary made the deal. Mary made the deal of her own accord, and she made it for John. Samuel really had nothing to do with it, regardless of what meatsuit was housing Azazel. It would make more sense for John to feel guilty because of what Mary did then. Samuel could feel angst for raising her as a hunter, but that doesn't seem to be entering into it at all.

interlude: Am rereading Wrong Time, and am suddenly amused that they used the Grey Man myths to lead to Sam's reappearance.

Because Grey Man = Big Foot = Sasquatch = Sam

Was that ep before we knew there was an actual Heaven in this 'verse?

It was after Mary discorporated. But it was stated, just like Tessa stated, that she doesn't know where people went afterwards. Maybe these spirits? End up in purgatory. Maybe that's why Sampa supported Crowley's quest so thoroughly. Show has been very careful not to tell us where John and Mary are (other than John is no longer in hell). All we can do is guess.

So you're saying you haven't seen the transition in Dean's behaviour over the ten episodes? Huh.

I've seen this speculation that Samuel feels some sort of guilt that it was the YED riding his body when Mary made her deal that is causing all his big guilt and driving his actions right now. But.... Mary made the deal. Mary made the deal of her own accord, and she made it for John. Samuel really had nothing to do with it, regardless of what meatsuit was housing Azazel.

The beauty of all of it is that it's this huge interconnected thing, with no one ever learning from history and thus being doomed to repeat it. Sure, it wasn't John who tortured and taunted his son in Devil's Trap, but that didn't mean it didn't influence his decision in In My Time of Dying. So it wasn't Samuel in the driver's seat, but he still felt everything (as we've heard from pretty much everyone who has been through possession), and that it wasn't really them, that's never made one of them feel a hell of a lot better for the actions of their body.

that it wasn't really them, that's never made one of them feel a hell of a lot better for the actions of their body.

Even though Samuel was already dead by that point? When the YED used John to torment Dean, or Meg used Sam for that week, they were still alive and had to live with the consequences. Samuel had already shuffled off this mortal coil... until Crowley or one of his minions or angel sidekicks tracked him down in the afterlife and drug it all up again, I guess.

Show has been very careful not to tell us where John and Mary are (other than John is no longer in hell). All we can do is guess.

They really have been. I await the inevitable gut punch. Because I ~feel~ like we know they're in Heaven but it's never been stated at all.

So you're saying you haven't seen the transition in Dean's behaviour over the ten episodes? Huh.

Actually, once you typed it all out and I could read about just Dean and Cas's interactions and think about how they've progressed, I can see the transitions.

It was watching the actual show where it didn't strike me.

Which is what leads me to think I need to back off trying so hard to be fannish about SPN right now. It's exhausting and I'd rather expect little from the show and be amused than expect the show to be what it was to me and be disappointed.

I want to feel some happy watching and not have my friends need to recap an entire season's worth of character interactions before I can accept they are evolving.

Because once I read your post, I could see how they were. It's just I am so caught up in skeeve and an arc I can't understand at all yet when I am watching, that I miss the subtle things.

Even though Samuel was already dead by that point? When the YED used John to torment Dean, or Meg used Sam for that week, they were still alive and had to live with the consequences. Samuel had already shuffled off this mortal coil... until Crowley or one of his minions or angel sidekicks tracked him down in the afterlife and drug it all up again, I guess.

Samuel was mortally wounded, but didn't die until the demon left his body, if I'm reading the way it works in SPN correctly. Azazel stabbed the meatsack while possessed. Like Meg Masters (original flavor), the meatsack clung to life until the demon was gone.

Which is what leads me to think I need to back off trying so hard to be fannish about SPN right now. It's exhausting and I'd rather expect little from the show and be amused than expect the show to be what it was to me and be disappointed.

It helps! It's not my primary fandom right now, as you know, and that's brought back my ability to just enjoy it. It's like a good ex-ummfriend where the sexual chemistry between us may be gone, but the fondness is still there.

(Meanwhile, I'm off in my torrid state of Sherlock affection and naming my sockcock Watson. It's a thing.)